fhtfire
1256 posts
Feb 22, 2008
11:26 AM
|
Now...I have a question about a bird coming out backwards....HOW THE HELL DOES THAT HAPPEN AND BREAK THE LAWS OF physics....Let me explain...I have been watching my birds real close and studying the SLOW MOTION videos on You tube....and If a bird is rolling backwards like a roller rolls and is doing 6-10 revs a second.....how is the bird able to come out backwards...if it does..it will be upside down too....I do not see how it is even possible if a roller is rolling that fast backwards...if it stops when it is righside up..it will be facing forward..period...so again..how can a bird..hauling ass able to stop and then spin around that fast....Now that I think about it...I have NEVER seen a bird actually come out backwards..but I have seen a bird come out forward and then start a loop away from the kit or turn away from the kit...but if it is rolling fast and come out in the backward position..it will be upside down.....and that would really be obvious if it is facing backwards and upside down.....
Look at the birds rolling in slow motion...the wing beat...the spinning...physics won't allow the bird to come out backwards without totally screwing the pooch....speed, power, gravity, inertia and direction of roll will not let the bird come out backwards......if it does..then it would be upside down too.....
A bird turning away from the kit after the roll.....does not make the bird non scorable...it makes any future breaks non scorable until it returns to the kit.....anyway...I have even had some of the propeller head college students that are Engineers look at the slow motion photos and the fast photos and they even said it is near impossible at the velocity of a scoreable roll to come out the wrong way without being upside down...laws of physics will not allow it...
Now if a bird actually comes out backwards..then the roll was not scorable because the bird is upside down or the bird is rolling to slow to be able to stop the laws of physics an stop the roll and then roll forward and then stop again......maybe it is the JFK magic bullet!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
Comments please...I would love to hear them!
|
W@yne
1103 posts
Feb 22, 2008
11:49 AM
|
Paul
Let me give my take on this.
A pigeon that puts a quality spin and exits the roll the wrong way is obvious the bird will twist on exiting the end of the roll that's why this is a fault bird, I have seen this many times also exit the roll to the side of the kit, My guess is the bird becomes disorientated i think this is a bird that is mentally weak.
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
|
Missouri-Flyer
1348 posts
Feb 22, 2008
11:57 AM
|
another answer would be if the kit were on, lets say a left wing, and while coming around the corner, the birds break, some will not be in position to come out of the roll in a forward motion, as the kit were swinging left when they broke..I see this often, at EVERY loft I have ever been to, including my own..Its part of the game.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
fhtfire
1258 posts
Feb 22, 2008
12:00 PM
|
Wayne,
I understand what you are saying...but if it can actually stop the velocity of the roll and "twist" it was either rolling to slow...or our eyes are deceiving us....If it twists or spins sideways....that I can see happen....and have seen happen...but when someone says backwards...I am picturing....bird snaps out with head facing other way....not slow and twist and turn...usually those birds have there legs out too..LOL...again..is it scorable....with no definition of a clean roll SNAPPING OUT FACING FORWARD....does it count as a bird in the break or is it Quality issue...if is is clean the whole way through and I mean rolls like a champion and twist at the end...where does it say that it does not count in as a scorable bird...anyway...that is why we need to define some things...but a bird actually snapping out backwards...I can't see happening..but twisting yes..but it may be a reall crappy roll...
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
fhtfire
1259 posts
Feb 22, 2008
12:04 PM
|
M.O. flier,
I agree...that is the kit moving and the birds facing the wrong way...I am talking about actually coming out backwards....starting with the roll with head facing West and comeing out with head facing east.....I know what you are talking about...I have seen that more time then you can imagine...that is just the kit turning and the birds are actually "popping out forward" they are just facing the wrong way because the kit moved.....but popping out in the different direction then when they started the roll is to me..coming out backwards...
If what you are talking about is coming out backwards..that is scorable...the kit turned during the break..so...the birds that hit the roll have no control over where the kit goes....but a good bird will pop out and find the kit like a moth to a flame....
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Missouri-Flyer
1349 posts
Feb 22, 2008
12:14 PM
|
Yes Paul,
I believe what you are referring to as "coming out backwards" is what I described. As stated, it is not possible for a bird to exit the roll in a backwards fashion..I believe when the kit is moving, and they roll during that time is what is referred to as coming out backwards, at least the way I understand it.
Yes it should be scored, but reading what people like Scott says makes me wonder if they dont realize it, and are not scoring those SCOREABLE breaks.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 12:14 PM
|
kcfirl
313 posts
Feb 22, 2008
12:20 PM
|
Paul,
I was judging Don Ouelletes kit a few years ago and noticed abird that was doing this. I was taking that bird off the breaks of course but after the judging was over I talked to don about it as we both watched.
The bird was rolling very smoothly and not glitching at all as it came out of the roll but was always pointing in the opposite direction.
The bird was slowly rotating on it's vetical axis as it rolled, thus when it finished rolling, it was actually pointing 180 degrees from where it started. If it had rolled twice as deep, I think it would have rotated a full 360 and facing the same direction as when it entered the roll.
That is the one tiome I have clearly seen a bird exit the roll in the opposite direction and was able to analyze what was happening.
I guess there may be other explanations or reasons for birds to exit backwards besides this.
Regards.
Ken
|
sippi
64 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:02 PM
|
I posted this at the end of a long thread but this is a better place. Page 52 in Pensom's Birmingham roller book the bird in the diagram is coming out backwards from the roll. Is it just me?
Sippi
|
nicksiders
2591 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:03 PM
|
I once believed there had to be wing switching going on if the bird exited backwards. What Ken described is what I witnessed on one of my birds. It drew my interest because it was beautiful in its performance, but always exited the other direction from its roll. The way I actually caught what it was doing was when I flew it with just 5 other birds. As it rolled downward it start to pivot just so slightly on it downward tragectory.....kinda like if one of its wings was slightly stronger than the other.
I found there was no wing switching involved.
If what I described is what actually is happening; is that bird scorable?
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 1:05 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2203 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:13 PM
|
sippi said:
I posted this at the end of a long thread but this is a better place. Page 52 in Pensom's Birmingham roller book the bird in the diagram is coming out backwards from the roll. Is it just me?"
LMAO!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 1:13 PM
|
maxspin
188 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:27 PM
|
The best I can find to explain fall in the 11 bird rules.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line start to finish.
If the bird pivots on the vertical axis while rolling and exits in any other direction than the direction it started in then it is not in a straight line start to finish.
SO…. If the judges standard is that the birds roll in a straight line (not pivoting). They will not be scored.
Keith Maxwell
|
kcfirl
315 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:40 PM
|
Nick,
as I mentioned in my note, I did not score that bird whenever I saw it exiting backwards.
But then, that is just my standard for a scoreable roll.
I've seen Scott socre them when they come out and fly upside down a few feet!
Ken
|
nicksiders
2592 posts
Feb 22, 2008
1:53 PM
|
sippi,
I think you are right; that diagram does have the bird coming out backward(LOL).
I guess if you think Pensom is gospel then you score it(LOL)
Nick
|
W@yne
1104 posts
Feb 22, 2008
3:37 PM
|
The best I can find to explain fall in the 11 bird rules.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line start to finish.
If the bird pivots on the vertical axis while rolling and exits in any other direction than the direction it started in then it is not in a straight line start to finish
Maxspin
You are absolutely correct Even a good kit bird will make mistakes and when it does do this the pigeon wont be counted in the break regardless.
I think the rules need addressing and can confuse people so i agree it could do with being more informative on these certain issues.
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 9:58 PM
|
Mount Airy Lofts
514 posts
Feb 23, 2008
9:35 AM
|
Paul,
I am with you on this one. I am bent on studying slow motion videos of my birds and others this year. Would like to study the revs on my birds and their style. Seems like I see my birds so dam much that it has blinded my view of their quality.
I don't see how a bird can go into a roll and come out the opposite direction unless coming out up side down. The birds that fly out in the other direction - birds that end their roll with a twist I have seen. Maybe this is what people have seen but just don't realize it.
About the 6-10 revs per second. Well, that is pretty darn slow. What a difference a couple more revs can do in the velocity department. Try studying the 13 rps.
Thor
----------
It's all about the friends we make :)
|
Alohabirds
106 posts
Feb 23, 2008
10:04 AM
|
Aloha All,
I have a bird in my kit doing this at this time. He doesn't always come out backwards but maybe 20% of the time. He is a 2 to 3 second, not really fast but decent speed and very smooth. I have been studying him and when he does come out backwards it seems that he ends his roll with a half barrel roll. What I mean is that he ends up upside down and facing backwards and at the same time rotates his body so that he is right side up. He won't make it to the breeding pen or maybe even the competition kit but he does roll nice enough to stick around, (for now).
I think this happens because when ending the roll, instead of both wings coming out to stop the roll, one wing comes out and catches air and flips the bird over.???????
Just what I've seen in this bird.
----------
Aloha, Dexter
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 10:07 AM
|
Scott
82 posts
Feb 23, 2008
5:24 PM
|
I've seen Scott socre them when they come out and fly upside down a few feet!
Ken
LOL LOL
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Scott
83 posts
Feb 23, 2008
5:28 PM
|
"The question is do judges have time to analyze this during competition!!!
Jay "
It is like an ugly fat woman on the beach in a thong, kinda hard not to notice
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Missouri-Flyer
1359 posts
Feb 24, 2008
6:10 AM
|
Hey Scott,
While at the beach, my eyes are attracted to the more fit type of women, so the ones as you described dont pop out as much.
Honestly, if you as a judge can pick out that type of bird when they break, every time, then you are better than most.The problem in doing that is, giving the ones that do it right, the score they deserve..But again, judges are human, and WILL ALWAYS make mistakes.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
Scott
84 posts
Feb 24, 2008
12:27 PM
|
Jerry there is no perfection and you do as best as you can as humanly possible
Can I spot sloppy,coming out wrong or sloppy ? yes I can in a heartbeat.
For me such birds stick out like a sore thumb,like the fat woman in a thong would,the same as ten cars going down and one has a bent rim.
Jerry it comes down to training yourself to analize the mechanics under countless kits,and not just watching them.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Missouri-Flyer
1364 posts
Feb 24, 2008
12:39 PM
|
I understand Scott,
But what I am getting at is, if lets say you have 12 birds that break at the same time, within that 1/2 second slot, and out of that 12 birds you have 1 that is not as smooth, maybe switched wing,etc., how do you pick that single bird out when so many were doing it right, especially doing it in the 1 or 2 seconds time frame it took for the break to happen, and for you to count how many broke?
I judge my kits on a daily basis, as well as visit other loft in my area, so I understand the concept. I am trying to see how a guy that I sent my entry fee to, have invited to my house to judge my birds in a fair manner, can spot that single bird when his eyes should be focused on the other quality birds. If not, then the judge is not going to score that kit like he should.
By the time that the judge comes to visit, a person should have those types of birds weeded out of your kit, but as we know, some will disappoint ya on fly day.
Scott, not picking on ya here, but trying to see how judge without faulting the birds that do it right, versus those that may fault now and then.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2008 12:39 PM
|
Scott
86 posts
Feb 24, 2008
1:48 PM
|
Jerry, like I said earlier it all comes down to doing the best to your ability , and it comes down to doing it as accuratly as possible,is it going to be perfect,of coarse not.
Under what you just described, that one bird would be easy to spot, the hard ones to score are when you have break after break of garbage with some being marginal and scoreable, a good judge will try and seperate the wheat from the chaff , poor judges just count it all.
The better the team the easier the judging, good clean qaulity breaks are the easiest to judge by a long shot, I might add that when I'm judging I rarely let my eye's focus on ind. birds , the focus stays on the entire team, and I don't snap out my calls, I think on what I just saw for few seconds or longer.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
