black_hawk_down
92 posts
Feb 04, 2008
5:52 PM
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What if the bird was perfect in every way possible except for it's bad style? Would you guys breed from a bad style rolling bird? why or why not?-joe
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Scott Campbell
38 posts
Feb 04, 2008
5:57 PM
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No Joe,never, because I don't want more of them.
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Scott
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smoke747
761 posts
Feb 04, 2008
5:58 PM
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It's hard enuff breeding from an producing good stock from birds that are stylish. why would you even think about using a cull?
My answer is HELL NO!!!!!
SMOKE747
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quickspin
314 posts
Feb 04, 2008
6:01 PM
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I will not breed it because that is the one thing I concentrate the most wing style. You can get a good bird almost from any one why breed from that one? You will keep breeding the same wing style by breeding that bird.
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SALAS LOFT
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Donny James
283 posts
Feb 04, 2008
6:17 PM
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no i wouldn't because i would get more of the bad style rolling birds.................donny james
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birdman
475 posts
Feb 04, 2008
6:47 PM
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Blackhawk,
Ask yourself if a bird like this is going to benefit you in the long run. You should be able to answer that question pretty quick without anybody elses input.
If your standards are high enough it will be evident in the birds you are able to produce. If your standards are not very high this will also be evident in the birds you produce.
Russ
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luis
605 posts
Feb 04, 2008
7:55 PM
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Good point Russ!I must agree 100%.
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Shadow
40 posts
Feb 05, 2008
9:35 AM
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Of course I would,if it had the characteristics I wanted or needed to help make up into good rollers,the roll is the finished product,with varying input require to build and sustain a safety level for it.
I probably wouldnt fly it too often though,especially if visitors present.
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2008 9:39 AM
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smoke747
764 posts
Feb 05, 2008
11:22 AM
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Birdman, please explain to me how a bird with bad style can benefit you in the long run.
smoke747
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
7 posts
Feb 05, 2008
11:36 AM
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I will not even fly a bird like that and NEVER even think of putting it in my stock loft.
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birdman
477 posts
Feb 05, 2008
2:07 PM
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Smoke,
I think you're misunderstanding my post. That's basically the same question I am asking Blackhawk to consider.
How can a bird like that be a benefit? It CANT in my loft based on MY standards.
Blackhawk has to set his own standard and realize the breeding choices he makes now are going to affect his birds later on down the line.
Russ
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wishiwon2
39 posts
Feb 05, 2008
2:22 PM
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No. to what point or purpose. I would not. I have tried in the past and got poor results.
In my opinion smoothness + cleanliness + wing position = style. Style is the most diffcult aspect to breed consistently. You almost absolutely get out what you put in. In other attributes like depth or frequency you may get some offspring with more than parents or less than them. With improper style, sloppy rolls, rough exits, out of balance birds, you almost never breed an improvement to the parents. In fact it is more often the opposite. My opinion.
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bigwilly
355 posts
Feb 05, 2008
2:33 PM
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I am with you on that one Smoke and probably all your other post to. You are a real asset to this game. Good work Bra
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3757
575 posts
Feb 05, 2008
3:44 PM
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Smoke - Ditto twice!
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JMUrbon
343 posts
Feb 05, 2008
4:28 PM
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Bad style, poor kitting, low velocity,wing switching,and any other undesirable trait that you can think of are all traits that should and need to be culled out of a stock loft. You will never advance you program by using culls to breed from.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
15 posts
Feb 05, 2008
4:32 PM
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You need to be as stricked as possible. Remember ONLY the best survive and if a roller with bad style is good enough for you, you have a problem.....lol
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c robbo
19 posts
Feb 05, 2008
4:34 PM
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its a cull
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Velo99
1572 posts
Feb 05, 2008
4:38 PM
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BHD,
If it has a bad style,it is a bad roller. Style is one half of the multiplier.
Why fly with one wing tied behind your back? Ya can`t cuz you then become a feathered rock.
The old saying is garbage in garbage out.
Rule of thumb
Always pick the best you have that produces as good or better than itself.
g/l
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Shadow
42 posts
Feb 05, 2008
11:51 PM
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Perfect in every way,except for its style,the popular consensual opinions of above implies that only top class rollers can come from top class roller,were it so easy,most top class rollers will surely have this trait in the genes,but it is capable of skipping a generation,by the same token top class rollers do not always produce top class on a regular basis,but they do produce the same genes,which is sometimes dormant,but its there, by this token good producers are not always good rollers,and vice a versa,a factual case,I bred five rollers from a pair of birds,the Sire was a very good roller,the dam a duff roller,but most of her family were good rollers,of these five offspring two were the best rollers ever seen or flown in this area,in a club of 27 members,the other three were also top class rollers,during a 12 bird fly judged by Bob Brown,Bill Barrett,and John Lenihan who were three icons of the roller world,they amassed a huge score, I had the pleasure of being told that this was one of the finest kits of rollers they had seen,the hen did go a.w.o.l,courtesy of a Perigrine,I did try the original Sire with many different hens later,bred good and poor birds,sadly never the quality of those five,which says to me the she possesed the genes required,although dormant by her own rolling standard,yet they shone in her offspring,or was it this elusive knicking factor being paramount in this pair,the hen a cull by most standards,I have had as many culls as any other,hopefully for the right reasons,including style,but rolling is a visual aspect,breeding is genetics,which can be dormant in one and pronounced in its comrade,capable of surfacing and appearing in another generation,what if this non stylish roller was a good lead bird,always at the front,capable of knocking a kit over twice a minute,will I go on.not trying to change any bodys mind set,we dont all march in step,and this is what makes the roller game such a challenge
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luis
617 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:11 AM
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I understand what you're saying shawdow and can attest to its truth,but i think in the scheme of things we should rely in what is obvious and visible instead of what is hidden and may never be seen.You stumbled on something good and capitalized on it...as it should be ,but i don't think this should become common practice for breeding quality birds.
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Shadow
43 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:18 AM
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How are you Luis
No as I said I dont wish to change anybodies mind,just explaining why (I) would sometimes breed from a less than perfect roller.
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ezeedad
311 posts
Feb 06, 2008
6:42 AM
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Black Hawk,
I was wondering how anybody could ask that.. and to tell the truth I'm still wondering....
Gomez
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CSRA
1339 posts
Feb 06, 2008
7:11 AM
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I would not breed from it that poses a question 2 bros. one is a great spinner the other does not roll at all you take them to the breeding and the one that does not roll produces the spin the one was a spinner produces good rollerwhat you think Paul
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Mount Airy Lofts
453 posts
Feb 06, 2008
11:15 AM
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Here is a video I took while flying my back up team. Can't risk the real team as last time they were out, one of them had a close encounter with a sky shark.
Can you see which one has the better style. They were coming in to land so the depth was turn off. Just watch the wing placement and tell me what you think. Only one of them rolls with what I call wings up high and smooth as silk. Not a good footage of the quality as they were too low to commit to any thing.
Birds to watch - Red Bar Self, Tort, and Black Griz
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J_Star
1537 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:42 PM
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Maybe that is what he has to use...If he has better won't you think he will use it before using a cull!!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:55 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
455 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:52 PM
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What is style without velocity?
What is harder to breed?
I hear guys saying all the time that you can't breed out of an axle roller and get 'H' or better rollers. Yet, you can breed out of an 'H' or better roller and get axles rollers. Once you lose a trait, can you ever breed it back with out a out cross?
What are recessive as terms in performance vs dominate? Are 'H' or better a recessive trait? Is the velocity department a recessive trait too? Are axle styles dominate? Are poor kitting dominate?
Man, it can get difficult some times selecting for the breeding loft. Just let the birds do your selection for you out of the air and you should do good. You will get more of what you put in has all ways held true.
Thor
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:56 PM
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fhtfire
1228 posts
Feb 06, 2008
2:07 PM
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No...strive for excellence.....I stock birds that are flown and show me heart, Kitting, Speed, depth, and most of all...CONTROL>...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
314 posts
Feb 06, 2008
5:11 PM
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Steve,
Sometimes those seldom rollers or very late rollers that get called non-rollers can be good producers of speed..that bird is carrying the whole package maybe with more control. Also some birds that aren't as strong can still spin great, but they won't fill those eggs with roll the way the really strong bird can..
To me the stock loft is the most important part of the program.
Gomez
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CSRA
1342 posts
Feb 06, 2008
5:44 PM
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Paul sounds good very good response lol
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CSRA
1343 posts
Feb 06, 2008
5:48 PM
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Paul i also responded to two mant breeeders topic
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ezeedad
315 posts
Feb 06, 2008
6:33 PM
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Steve,
I saw your response... Maybe I should answer there... You know that I like those birds you showed me... You know how to pick a good bird..and how to take very good pictures too.. Makes me happy to see you loving the hobby so much...
Gomez
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smoke747
775 posts
Feb 06, 2008
6:45 PM
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CSRA,Paul,- have you guys ever had a bird, hen or cock that was not that good but produced a high % of young that were able to produce better than the original bird?
A PRODUCER OF PRODUCERS(ROM)
SMOKE747
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classicpony
668 posts
Feb 06, 2008
7:08 PM
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NO NO NO! way to many of them, Great to Great Good to Good Poor to the culling pin,
Jim
Illinois
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ezeedad
317 posts
Feb 06, 2008
8:18 PM
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Keith,
I can't really say that I've had a bird that fits your description... Have you had something like that before.?? I guess the main reason is that I tried to only breed from my best..
Paul
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Flipmode
103 posts
Feb 06, 2008
8:44 PM
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Thor to me the 1st one had the better style.
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fhtfire
1229 posts
Feb 06, 2008
10:47 PM
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I don't know..I have never bred from a mediocre bird...I only pull good ones.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shadow
45 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:11 AM
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I am the type of fancier who will breed from a duff roller,if its other desired requirements are in abundance mostly I try a particular young hen bearing most traits of its Sire back to its Sire,and vice versa,with a Dam provided its from an established line of prolific rollers,my feelings on this being the correct genes are there,but can be dormant for any one season,or longer,but breeding like this within the same gene pool,will and does lessen the dormance of these genes,regardless of performance,which was only to begin with on a somewhat minor basis.
Two points to ponder the first one above re two nestmates from Paul
The second being the horse racing Industry,whose format is a top class Stallion at Stud with performances to match,covers x amount of mares in any given season,with a conservative estimate of at least 80% of these mares never having seen a race track (no performance as such)soley being bred from due to their lineage and pedigree,now are we to say WHOOOAA this is wrong only performers to performers,when there is a cast iron mindset in this Industry that a racing mare is a LESS likely prospect than its unraced sister,to produce the goods ,due mainly to its former efforts expended in racing. Just food for Thought.
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 4:13 AM
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JMUrbon
349 posts
Feb 07, 2008
3:37 PM
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I guess if the birds was mediocre and was what you had to choose from then yes we all probably bred from mediocre birds at one time or another but as you progress so should your stock and that means choosing the best to breed from. Not hoping the bests brother will do well. It should always be in your best interest to improve you stock loft, I know that I rate a pair on how many of their young are as good or better than the parents. Not the culls from a pair. Thats how alot of feather merchants make their living. By selling a bird to an unsuspecting newcommer with the belief that it will be a good bird because its brother/sister was. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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c robbo
41 posts
Feb 07, 2008
3:53 PM
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wood u class that as a roll? it lookes like it as been shot
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JMUrbon
350 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:01 PM
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You must be talking about the video that Thor posted. All I can say about it is that it is very difficult if not impossible to truely show style and velocity when it comes to a good Birmingham roller. There is equipment out there that can show it but it is very expensive and rarely seen in this hobby. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Shadow
51 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:34 AM
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J.M
While there doesnt appear to be too much relevance between these two systems,your is best to best only on a continuing basis,and yet I am sure still providing culls,so its has to be classed as a hit and miss system,what percentage,determined by amount of pairs breeding,my system is based on confined genetics within the same gene pool,and with good husbandry,stock manship,intuition, I believe its more factual I will breed a better % of whats contained within the gene pool,then if I was to do it on a somewhat random basis,as for feather mers.these I cant comment on ,never having bought or sold a roller in my life,good luck to those who do, whatever system used its like the lady says,you pay your monies and you take your chance,and let posterity be the judge Wish you all the best.
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Mount Airy Lofts
460 posts
Feb 08, 2008
9:37 AM
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c robbo,
Never said they were rolls. I was gonna take photos that day of my old bird team but it was too dam cold out. We were in the low 20's but felt more like teens with that wind chill. Had to hide between the foster loft and the kit loft just to soak in the cold sun rays. You really have to like the birds to be able to spend 2 plus hours out side watching the birds in that cold.
For me, a roll would require at least 10 feet of ascent. I was filming it with my digital camera so depth became even harder to judge but I can assume none of the 4 tumbles reached that of the requirement. There was one that the bird clearly only went about 5 feet before pulling out. As you can see, it was quite close from the roof when it did. You can't tell but they were only about 20-30 feet up at most. This is done by judging them against the trees in the back ground.
I should be filming my A-team instead of my back ups but a cooper the other day change any thought I had of flying my old bird team - which had the close encounter. The only sky they will be seeing is from the wired cage setup on top of the roof. My back ups are flown every time I have some free time just to fill my need for seeing some thing in the air performing.
flipmore,
It is hard to tell quality from that clip. Out of the ones trying to perform on there, only the tort is considered a very good styled roller in my books. When up high, he will roll 20 foot with ease. The wings would be straight up and down. Will appear smooth and yo-yo like spin. The thing is, he lacks velocity for some reason. The one you commented on is of good style but velocity in the roll. He also does that wing clapper crap before he rolls. Some thing I can not stand. These birds will all ways tell you when they are gonna perform by doing this. I like the ones that just surprises you every time.
The bird in the clip, the Red Bar is the fastest but with poorest style (X style). The Black Grizzle is the deepest 25-30 feet but over all is the best performer (style, velocity, and depth wise). The Tort is the best styled out of all my back up team members but lacks any velocity (at least appears to). I have seen this many times. Especially out of the open 'H' style rollers. They seem to be so smooth, they appear slow.
Thor
P.S. They have faults, that is a main reason they are sitting it out most of the flies.
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