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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
What do you breed for COLOR or PERFORMANCE
What do you breed for COLOR or PERFORMANCE
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Alan Bliven
263 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:27 PM
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Bob,
I agree, Brian has the best balance on this board.
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Alan
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Ballrollers
98 posts
Oct 19, 2005
1:30 PM
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Brian, Thanks for the perspective. It helps to keep a certain balance in the whole discussion to simply let the birds do the talking. The way I figure it, for me to be able to select some birds out of the air, put them together, breed some youngsters, fly them out and score 102 points in competition with young birds, the first year, tells me that they have tremendous potential; more potential than any I have worked with before. So I will stick with them, regardless of the naysayers; mongrels or pedigrees, colors or plain. Shaun, you are in the same boat as me in the competition game with a new family of rollers. If you don't get the performance you are looking for out of those Masons, how long will you continue to stick with them? Indefinitely? YITS Cliff
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Ballrollers
99 posts
Oct 19, 2005
1:36 PM
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Alan, Excellent post at the top of the page. Well said. I especially like the line about the crucifixion by the narrow-minded. It fits. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 19, 2005 1:37 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
193 posts
Oct 19, 2005
2:10 PM
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Well, Brian, if nothing else, these current colour/breeding posts are bringing a few people out of the woodwork and I've certainly learned a bit about different perspectives. Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and before you go all sensitive on me - this is an observation not a criticism), you seem to fall into the camp of those confident chaps who believe their superior handling skills means they could turn a kit of crap into a winning team, so the background of the birds is largely irrelevant? Indeed, if they were to win a major competition, they could donate the kit elsewhere, start all over again and repeat the process.
Am I warm or am I wide of the mark?
Shaun, what is it with you and this sensitivity thing? Must be a musician thing I guess right? I wish I had such a firm connection with the inner soul of society. Please teach me a thing or two. Naw, forget it. I wouldn't listen anyways..LOL
The answer to your question would first be that I don't believe I have superior handling skills. I do have faith in my focused passion and have learned from experience. There are some guys who can take a kit that you would probably cull and make them competitive. I've seen some of these guys work and they are masters at what they are able to accomplish. Hopefully someday when you've had the opportunity to familiarize yourself with some of the very successful veterans you are lucky to be near, you will be able to see how some of these guys are. Successful flyers don't luck into it. Successful flyers make it happen for them. Ask Kenny or Scott how much experience and thought has to go into getting the most out of a kit.
Yes Shaun, the background of the bird is completely, without question...irrelevant. Pedigrees don't mean shit. History and hertiage only sooths curiosity. What does it do for comp day? Nothing. The act of rolling is singular. It has no attachments or dependents. It is a physical action (or reaction) which we breed around and for. What a bird's great, great, grandfather was and who owned it has absolutely no bearing on how well your birds will perform. An estute roller fancier dealing with the birds he likes and has chosen to keep is what will get him over the next hurdle.
Shuan, you have to consider that I do this solely for the joy of competition. I thrive on it. I eat, sleep, and breath competition performance. I dissect my management journals to look for similarities that might get me one more break in a competition. Someday I hope to have superior handling skills and be the master of my goals. I want to win it all, everything, and do so using unorthadox methods. I really enjoy showing people the opposite of what they were told, given that situation is attainable. You might not understand that mentality and I wouldn't expect you too.
Good day mate.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Oct 19, 2005 5:51 PM
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motherlodelofts
368 posts
Oct 19, 2005
2:29 PM
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Brian wrote
(Yes Shaun, the background of the bird is completely, without question...irrelevant.)
Now thats a good one LOL LOL, Who was 272 and how did this blood play into the your Black Elvis stuff ?
The background of the bird is what it is made of, Good and Bad.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 2:33 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
195 posts
Oct 19, 2005
3:10 PM
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Scott, if there is any 272 blood in them, it is more than 10-15 generations away so I would consider the influence of that bird as "irrelevant". That would be like saying Adam is relevant to my being today...LOL. I would say Lucifer has had more of an impact on my being than Adam...LOL.
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motherlodelofts
369 posts
Oct 19, 2005
4:16 PM
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All key families have key birds in the background that influence what we fly today.
If they didn't have any influence we would be flying rock doves.
But, just because particular birds have particular key birds in the background doesn't make it a good bird either.
What is behind your Black Elvis family ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 4:18 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
196 posts
Oct 19, 2005
5:24 PM
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Black Elvis' side is Destout/Copple's Smith family. The other side are hens based off of Gibson's #1 producing hen, #246 andalusian x a cock bred from this hen's daughter x 1470. This year I inbred them further and the results seemed to have gotten even better.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
370 posts
Oct 19, 2005
5:31 PM
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Wasn't there a Borges or Kieser hen that was bred to Randys original Andy cock ? that is in there on the Bottom side ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 5:35 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
197 posts
Oct 19, 2005
5:50 PM
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If memory serves me correctly, the story Randy told me was that he chose a black self Borges bred hen that Doug Brown had and mated it to one of the Turner Andy cocks that was sent to Doug. The best hen, and andalusian was then mated to 1470 which produced either a cock or hen (I can't remember) which became one of the parents to the #246 andalusian hen among others. I mated #246 to one of 1470's sons (2423) whose mother is an andalusian from the original Turner andy cock x a daughter of 1470. The resulting offspring from 246x2423 was still to this day one of the most awesome pairings I have ever experienced. Two of the best were then mated to the Elvis brothers as a test, which has now turned into my main family that I really like.
Brian.
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birdman
74 posts
Oct 19, 2005
6:10 PM
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As long as the bird has the heart and the brains to do everything right then the paint job means absolutely nothing.
If we are performance minded fanciers, anything less than what is expected as a bare minimum from these birds should wind up in the trash can. My opinion.
Russ
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Mongrel Lofts
48 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:21 PM
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BMC,
Just for the Record. B.E. I take to be your black Elvis cock. Is this correct? If so, please tell us the back ground of B.E. is he of Mongrel back ground? Or is he of Smith/Pensom Birmingham roller back ground..
One other question BMC, your andy hen, isn't her back ground 272 and the pure Pensom Birmingham roller stuff from a kiser cock bred on a Mongrel from Randy?
If I'm correct here or even close on the back ground of this pair that makes good roll for you. Where do you think the roll is coming from?
BMC, you can stand in the Garage all day long, but you can never be a car. You can drive one, but you will never be one!! The Birmingham roller is the car your Mongrel is riding in.. Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
37 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:52 PM
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It's starting to sound like the word "mongrel" is a term of endearment here...LOL! Maybe it's the "mongrel" blood we all need a little bit of to truly breed and fly champions - well at least for our birds. I can't do what they do so, so maybe I'm just a roller on the ground LMAO!!!
...True, I may not be a car, but, I can turn a flip or two, but that's another story....
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 19, 2005 9:10 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
198 posts
Oct 19, 2005
9:58 PM
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(Just for the Record. B.E. I take to be your black Elvis cock. Is this correct?)
Yes, that would be correct.
(If so, please tell us the back ground of B.E. is he of Mongrel back ground? Or is he of Smith/Pensom Birmingham roller back ground.)
As was posted above, he is of the Smith background.
(One other question BMC, your andy hen, isn't her back ground 272 and the pure Pensom Birmingham roller stuff from a kiser cock bred on a Mongrel from Randy?)
Again, read previously posted explanation.
(If I'm correct here or even close on the back ground of this pair that makes good roll for you. Where do you think the roll is coming from?)
The roll is coming from selection. Obviously somewhere way back the original birds that were used were mated to rollers, and over consequent matings the roll was established. I think that is only common sense don't you?
(BMC, you can stand in the Garage all day long, but you can never be a car. You can drive one, but you will never be one!! The Birmingham roller is the car your Mongrel is riding in.)
I love hearing you say that Kenny. You just confirmed that my birds are mongrels and Birmingham Rollers in the same sentence. Wow, imagine that!
If you are referring to my rollers never being rollers, though it seems they roll just like rollers, breed just like rollers and score just like rollers...I guess that makes them rollers now doesn't it. Don't have to stand in the garage very long to figure that one out now do ya..LOL.
By the way, I build my own cars, I don't drive someone else's..LOL.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Oct 19, 2005 9:59 PM
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Phantom1
41 posts
Oct 19, 2005
10:05 PM
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Kenny,
What family of birds are you flying? Maybe I should ask, what families? I don't care to read back through the numerous posts to try and find the answer. If you car enough to answer, you'll do so here. I'm curious to know for a number of reasons, which I will explain if you choose to entertain the conversation.
Eric
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Mongrel Lofts
49 posts
Oct 20, 2005
6:31 AM
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Hey BMC,
I thought you might find some humor in my anology. Oh well..
Phantom
I breed Birmingham rollers that have not been crossed on show breeds and other non sporting cage breeds in the states for odd color'factor and patterns..
I'm one of Dinasour purist that believe the Birmingham roller was a set breed many years before we got it over here. It had a rich culture in the black country of England. Where men strived and created a breed based on performance.
The greats of recent past here in the USA all bred Pure Birmingham rollers and would turn in their graves at the thought of the old Black country Birmingham roller being crossed on a oriental frill for color. Pensom, smith, Thompson, Nieble, Houghton none of the great breeders in this country would consider polluting the breed for color. I guess that is why they will go down in history as great birmingham roller breeders and some others will go down in history as the great roller cross breeders for color.
Nothing the colored breeders are doing improve the roller in the air. Its just perch and feather the Birmingham roller has been crossed for. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 20, 2005 6:34 AM
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Phantom1
42 posts
Oct 20, 2005
6:46 AM
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Kenny,
So you don't really have a family. You just have Birmingham Rollers - is this correct?
Thanks,
Eric
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motherlodelofts
371 posts
Oct 20, 2005
7:49 AM
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Kenny the Key is educating the new guys walking in the door , some don't care but many do.
Kenny the fact is we have helped many here and if it wasn't for us they would have been sucked in not knowing the difference (as I was).
Kenny it is not as dire out there as you think , but I think the biggest danger to the breed is the crossing (burying) of those birds in to the real deal and hiding it to a degree of not knowing it is there until inbred and brought to the surface.
This breed and the men behind it does have a rich history that needs to be treasured , it is the breed and the birds from these men that gave us what we have today, sure some have polluted it,and have no repect for it, but many still do respect the breed and the men behind it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 20, 2005 8:03 AM
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Ballrollers
101 posts
Oct 20, 2005
8:48 AM
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Scott,
You might say "polluted", many others would say "improved". Instead of rollers with commie plumage, we have had someting more attractive as an option without sacrificing performance. And yes, they are much more beautiful in a cloudless, blue sky to watch perform. That's it plain and simple. Knowing the breed is already an alphabet soup of genetic traits and background, adding another color modifier was done with complete respect for the breed and their aerial performance. To have bred them indiscriminately without regard for performance would have disrespected the breed, since they are just that, aerial performers. It was out of complete respect for the bred that this quality has been preserved. That is more than can be said for many breeders of pedigree birds that are bred only for pedigree, based on a long lost bird in history with little performance left in the strain. I believe that we could find many more lofts of stiff non-performing Pensoms and mixed families of "pedigrees" in the country than of stiff non-performing Birminghams with color modifiers! So who is really disrespecting the breed here? Not too difficult to answer, really, is it? YITS Cliff
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Shaun
154 posts
Oct 20, 2005
8:56 AM
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Scott, very well put, my man. We're talking soul here and to many, hopefully it still has some sort of impact. I've seen a few analogies on this forum in order to emphasise a point. Fine - here's mine:
My guitar collection consists of many great axes - mostly American and made in the 1950s and early 1960s, the era where they were hand carved from mainly no longer available woods. Fender guitars were signed in pencil by the guy or gal who carved that wood for the neck and body. Nowadays, without those pencilled initials, the guitar would be worth diddly squat. (That's an Americanism I picked up; I really like it.)
Fender and Gibson were then taken over and became mass industries. They still make the same guitars today (I do have newer Gibson/Fender/Rickenbacker/Dobro, too), but their value and desirability is but a fraction of any original guitar from that bygone era. I have a 1957 Telecaster (a year younger than me, bless it) and it's battered look is filled with players' efforts from sweaty pubs and clubs from over half a century. I managed to buy it relatively cheap - around $5,000. It's value, if someone hadn't decided to 'improve' it by giving it a paint job, would be nearer $40,000. This type of history and heritage is what made the guitar industry what it is today, and those particular guitars from that era remain sublime to hold and to play and could be used everday, where it not for their value. Modern man has done everything he can to 'improve' that dark chequer - sorry, Fender Telecaster, since its inception in the early 50s, but has never come up with anything to better it.
Anyhow, back to rollers: I've just a minute ago read Tom Monsom's history of the Birmingham Roller on the Roller Digest forum; it makes for very interesting reading, and is perhaps worth a look by those who might still be wondering what all the fuss is about. It's about soul, man.
Shaun
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Shaun
155 posts
Oct 20, 2005
9:06 AM
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Cliff, I don't get the commie thing at all, or the barn pigeon look, mentioned somewhere earlier. The huge variation in youngsters I've bred this year, in terms of colour and pattern, from the bog-standard colours, does make me question where you're coming from. Yes, there are roller families out there which have more of a tendency towards less colour variation, but even the likes of Scott, with his predominantly dark chequers, have been at pains to point out that the standard colour variations, which have always existed, need not lead to a drab loft. I had a visitor to my loft today and she said she'd no idea that pigeons could be so beautiful.
Shaun
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Phantom1
43 posts
Oct 20, 2005
9:30 AM
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Shaun,
I'd love to have a Double Neck Taylor Acoustic made of Koa wood! Unfortunately, Koa wood is endangered, coming only from Hawaii, and can't be used for anything unless the tree falls by events of nature. Fortunately, there are other acoustic guitars that play just as well and offer their own beauty - aside from dollar signs. Wouldn't you agree?
Eric
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siddiqir
88 posts
Oct 20, 2005
9:44 AM
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I do not breed for colors but I do hate few colors and do not want to have them in my breeding pen and kit box no matter how good they are, blue checkers and blue bar (the one look like street pigeons). I usually send them up to test if hawk is around and most of the time they got taken.
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Shaun
156 posts
Oct 20, 2005
9:47 AM
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Eric, I just knew the second I posted that message, I'd blundered; someone would immediately pick up on the numbers thing, which wasn't the point at all. I was getting at the heritage thing - the whole soul of the guitar - it's history, etc.
But, you guys aren't talking about cost at all; Cliff and others suggest that the roller has been improved and you no longer have to put up with commie plumage. Dollars don't come into this; it's about choice. Many of you are suggesting that the Birmingham Roller, which the likes of Scott and Kenny clearly cherish, was an ugly, barn pigeon, desperately in need of improvement. My analogy was meant to show that we've seen this sort of thing time and again, not least in the guitar world. I should mention that those guitars I mention, worth a fortune today, were for a long time disregarded and worth peanuts - until people woke up and started to cherish what they actually were. They never needed improving.
Shaun
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Phantom1
44 posts
Oct 20, 2005
10:00 AM
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Shaun,
I was teasing....
Eric
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Ballrollers
102 posts
Oct 20, 2005
10:34 AM
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Wel, Shaun, I know it is a trite phrase, but it fits. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". (Both in the air and on the ground.) We have an aerial standard that is variable based on the individual judge's opinion. Why should there bee any difference with evaluating how they look on the perch! YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
372 posts
Oct 20, 2005
11:15 AM
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Improved ????? You gotta be frigging kidding LOL , Cliff you can write it all you want , but that still doesn't make it so , nor does it make any sence.
Havn't sacraficed performance ?????? you may want to look at a little bigger picture , when performance is followed the mongral blood gets buried deeper and deeper and the color is all but lost , when you follow the color you have sqaut other than the rare one that pops out and grabs all the attention unless you want to count treesitters,early landers, and non kitters.
You keep talking about all these pure non performing stiffs, Who ? where? no problem here, no problem with the bulk of the fliers here and the rest of the world that carry these thes fly's , obviously no problem with the real Birminghams that made the crossbreds roll , sorry Cliff but common sence and fact over rides what you write
Cliff, why did JoeBobs kit have all normal colors except for one ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 20, 2005 4:33 PM
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Phantom1
45 posts
Oct 20, 2005
11:51 AM
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Scott,
From the genetic perspective of what Joe Bob's birds makeup were, here's my take on it. True, only one bird really stood out as being uncommon or not of "hard colors". I think I recall seeing in Joe's explanation of what the WC winning kit consisted of, that 4 of the Blue-Checks could carry Reduced if they were to turn out to be cocks. So from the genetic perspective, that tells us that the mother to these 4 Blue-Checks would have been a Reduced Hen mated to a Blue-Check Cock. There in lies the explanation to the question, "Why did he only have the one colored bird". It also validates that he wasn't concerned with color, otherwise he probably would've put that Reduced Hen on a Reduced Cock or a Blue bird that carried it in order to reproduce the color alone. That being said, that Reduced Hen that produced those Blue-Checks must have had some value to add or it would have been in the dumpster.
Eric
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Shaun
157 posts
Oct 20, 2005
11:55 AM
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This is developing into farce. I mean, Scott, it would appear that if Rauf had your birds, they would all by now have been fed to the hawks, due to their lack of prettiness. So much for performance being the main objective.
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
64 posts
Oct 20, 2005
11:56 AM
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Shaun,
Why criticize one man for what he chooses to feed? What business is it of yours what the nexy guy has or does with his birds?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Shaun
158 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:05 PM
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Well, Bob, what business of yours is it how I choose to respond to a given post? I can certainly do that to you if you wish - police your responses. I felt that the sending of 'inferior' uncoloured birds up to the hawks was worthy of a response.
Shaun
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Shaun
159 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:16 PM
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Attack, Bob? I'm simply questioning how anyone can justify feeding pigeons to the hawks simply due to their colour. I would have reacted in the same way had it been the opposite, ie pretty pigeons being tossed to the hawks, simply because of their colour.
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
66 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:17 PM
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Shaun,
You are right. it is none of my business what you respond to posts on here. I appreciate the fact that you just stated the revers (had it been a coloured bird instead of a blue check). My apologies.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Oct 20, 2005 12:18 PM
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Shaun
160 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:31 PM
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Bob, how did you do that? Your remark about me 'attacking' has suddenly disappeared. So, my response is left there, which looks somewhat out of place, as your post has disappeared.
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
67 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:36 PM
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Shaun,
you have the option of deleting or editing your own posts. I felt I was a bit harsh and accusatory towards you so I withdrew my post.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Shaun
161 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:47 PM
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Thanks for your honesty, Bob.
Shaun
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Phantom1
46 posts
Oct 20, 2005
12:56 PM
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Now that's what I'm talking about!!!! Two gentlemen with different views actually getting along! What is the world coming to? LOL!!!
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siddiqir
90 posts
Oct 20, 2005
1:20 PM
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Guys, there are dozen of pictures shown in the book 'winner with spinners' from great UK flyers but non of them seem to have solid colors like Black, Red, etc...they are mix of soft/hard colors (Mealy white flight, Barless Mealy cock, black saddle, Red Badge, tortoiseshell, white, black bald/badge, black mottled, red grizzle and they are all champions (UK fanciers best birds) just wonder if there are any hard color birds in England. Thanks, -Rauf
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Shaun
163 posts
Oct 20, 2005
1:49 PM
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Eric, you're a good lad, so I'm not taking anything you say personally. Cliff, I just spotted a response you made to me about my Masons. You have a point. Scott did mention to me (wise old owl that he is) that they may not work out for me (as indeed they haven't done for others), so he suggested I should, therefore, consider birds from elsewhere. But, this brings me back to what goes on over here. If that is the case, I can get in touch with one of our other flyers and obtain birds from another loft of similar calibre. Mind you, having invested so much in the Masons, it's not something I'm going to do on a whim - but it has been said that no-one manages Mason birds as well as George himself. So, with this in mind, when Dave Moselely asked me couple of weeks ago if I'd like four of his youngsters to try out, I willingly agreed. Fast forward a tad and I now fly them every day with the Masons, thus keeping my options open.
Anyhow, the point is that if I need a change of direction, I will still end up with birds from another well-known English flyer, whose stock can be traced back to Pensom's time. Cliff, your earlier comments remain true - we're highly exposed over here, so there's been little hanky panky over the years. That, I think, is to my benefit.
Although I've read much over this past few days about heritage meaning nothing, I beg to differ. I've acquired stock directly from a guy who is still on relentless top form right here, right now, and who has kept the same line alive for 40 or more years. He developed his line from guys who were not only around in Pensom's time, in the 1950s, but who kept at it until they succumbed to the big roller guy in the sky, not that long ago in the 1980s/90s. So, I don't believe that it's so easy to dismiss that 'old' blood as something going back to Moses and, therefore, utterly irrelevant.
Shaun
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Shaun
164 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:01 PM
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Rauf, you're quite right about the mix of hard and soft colours in the UK; I have a loft full of them. I'm wondering, is this where the problem lies over there - that only hard men have solid colours whilst pooftahs (that's English) have lots of white on their birds?
In my UK mix, they range from dark chequer selfs right through to saddles, with a myriad of bald/badges/odd-sides in between.
We have never had any problem with colour and pattern, but only within the standard colours which have existed since - well, dare I say, Moses.
Shaun
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Phantom1
47 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:16 PM
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Ash Red, Blue, and Brown are all hard colors.
Shaun,
If you're flying the Mason birds, I have yet to see one without at least white flights. That's just the family. You probably are getting your fair share of Recessive Reds I bet. Be mindful, and I'm not yanking your chain here. There was a breeder I know that received some un-polluted Mason birds here in the US. From two Blue-Bars, out pops a Milky Blue Bar. Don't get me to try to figure that one out. All I can say is that if you're easily scrutinized for things like that, you may want to pay George a visit. He may have quite a few of them hanging out in a dark corner LOL! Of course, there's also the possibility that what is called Milky here and in the genetic books, are not referred to as such where you are. It may be looked at as just another shade of Blue-Bar.
Eric
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motherlodelofts
373 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:18 PM
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Shaun, no that is not the problem over here, many families carry birds with a lot of white on them over here also, in fact very few families are the hard color only families , most have more of a mix as far as white goes.
Eric I doubt that you have seen Masons that truelly that represent that family , they are popping all kinds of funny stuff here that they wouldn't over there due to the lofts that they are coming out of.
I think that you would find the truth in the other birds that are on the property as you go up the line .
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 20, 2005 2:25 PM
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Ballrollers
103 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:38 PM
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Scott and guys,
When I said improved, I was speaking from a personal esthetic point of view; held by many, I might add. Given two rollers of equal performance, personally, I think an Andalusian is an improvment over a blue checker; a blue lace is an improvement over a blue bar, and we could go on. Performance comes first. After that, give me a nice type and eye, then a pretty shade of feathers. That's my priority list. Any improvement in any of these areas improves the breed.
You questioned my statement that performance has not been sacrificed; abosolutely wrong!!!! And it is proven over again with every fly. You are one of a few who just refuse to accept the fact, Scott.(Deep inside, I know you are acknowledging it!)
"...the rare one that pops out and grabs all the attention unless you count tree-sitters, early-landers and non-kitters." You're so comical, Scott, grasping at all those straws!!! You know better, and have acknowledged their performance publicly. LOL Who you tryin' to fool, buddy? Yeah, Alex scored more points than anyone ever in a fly because they are so rare! Jay has three or four kits of these birds capable of winning any fly on any given day! So does Joe Bob, and Dave Strait and many others! I have produced 15-20 quality birds in my A & B kits with 30 more to develope in my first year with the family, much better than I can say for the stiff pedigrees I owned. Out of 100 birds raised, I have culled none for tree-sitting and one for out-flying. I think I can work with those percentages! But it doesn't matter what evidence is presented. You just can't admit it, Scott! I understand! That's ok. That's cool. You gotta save face with your buddy KGB!!
What stiff pedigree birds am I referring to you ask? Now I know you're trying to pull the wool over somebody's eyes! Once again, you have posted, repeatedly, about the poor quality birds in the backyards of flyers all over the country. We have all seen dozens of guys who won't cull a stiff non-performing "Pensom" bird because it has a pedigree. Granted, some of those are bogus rip-offs and they don't even know it. So don't stand in self-rightousness and criticize my family of birds when your own family, or extensions of it, have plenty of ghosts in the closet. I am LMAO just listening to you!
Now I have explained about Joe Bob's birds a dozen times and you keep ignoring it, buddy...or repeating the question just for some effect you want to have on these lurkers and newbies. Once again, the Turner birds (South Carolina birds to Joe Bob) have the full range of color modifiers. Some birds show it, some carry it. That is the basis of his family with 1/16th Starley, or 1/16 Baker or 1/16th Vandabosh; or 1/32 Jaconette. And he keeps going back to the base family when he needs to bring back quality, frequency and depth. That's all that matters. The family is solid. Your theory about polluting the breed is bogus and irrelevant. Wake up and join the year 2005. This is not 1965! You crack me up!!! LOL LOL LOL Cliff
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Phantom1
48 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:43 PM
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Scott,
Just like the Turner/South Carolina birds. What happened almost immediately after Joe Bob's win? Out of the woodwork, all of a sudden, tons of people had Turner birds. Wouldn't you know it! Hey, it's good for a sale point eh? Some of that same stuff went out 2 or 3 years ago with the Masons. The individual I'm referring to, supposedly got his Masons as direct imports. Now, I don't know if that is to mean, he got them from a guy that imported them. But if that's the case, that would have been the only link in the chain. To the best of my knowledge he kept all of his Masons in a loft of their own. If the family and birds were pure, it was probably a 1 in a million chance that it would have occured. But again, maybe it's a common occurance over in the UK and it's just regarded as something entirely different. Who knows...the Milky birds are gone now, so it doesn't matter much.
Eric
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Ballrollers
104 posts
Oct 20, 2005
2:53 PM
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Shaun, One of the points I am trying to make is: Isn't the most important thing, what they do for you in the sky today? What good is the 'old blood' if it doesn't create performance for you when you fly? If all you get to say at the end of the fly is, "Well they are Pensoms (or whatever), and they are Telstars (or 514 blood) and they sure kit good". That's not enough for me. It never has been. I've been searching for performance and the guys who had it in the pedigree birds wouldn't part with it, and I contacted many. So here I am, happy as a clam with a family of birds, selected out of the sky and handed to me, that is performing way beyond my expectations. If you had seen Jay's 11-bird kit in the regionals in the pouring rain, breaking and spinning twice a minute from 30-60 feet and kitting like a great team; scoring 291 points in 8 minutes before the rain drove one down. Man, that's the kind of action I want to see!! Now I hear from Joe Bob that Don Simpson has a hen that was spinning 80 feet and snapping right back to the kit, scoring 5 points every time. You'd be laughing at Scott's and KGB's absurdities about "no performance", just like me! YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 20, 2005 2:58 PM
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Velo99
120 posts
Oct 20, 2005
3:10 PM
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Eric.
I too have about the same time in as yourself. Feel good about Gary upping some birds. I spent 45 minutes on email trying to work a trade with him. Wasn`t happening!! lol
I have two birds from Gary , I got them at the State picnic last spring. Anyway I recently aquired one pair of the "real deal". If my management skills are up to the challenge and I don`t burn out my hen, it`ll take me two seasons to get back to where I am now with my hodge-podge birds,some of which are quite good. Keep your ear to the ground bro. It is a matter of being in the right place at the right time and just bugging the snot out of some breeders in your area.
Good Luck
YITS
v99
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motherlodelofts
374 posts
Oct 20, 2005
3:25 PM
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Cliff you answered my post completly out of context, which I guess should be expected, or just your lack of understanding.
Either way , you are only hurting yourself , I think that you are sharp enough and competitive enough though to figure it out in time, you will either follow the roll or the color.
Now I will ask that question one more time,why did JoeBobs kit have all normal colors except for one ? (hint hint look above LOL)
As for changing the paint job being an improvment, Cliff I don't know how to answer that except I don't look at the pigment of the feathers, for me it is a strictly a sporting breed rich in tradition and the pigment of the feathers hold no value at all when we are looking at a first class bird.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 20, 2005 9:55 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
512 posts
Oct 21, 2005
4:25 AM
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Hello everyone.I see there has been a lot of activity going on lately.Seems like everytime I take a break things gets going and I miss out on all this.LOL. Anyway I have been trying to Hunt & do Rollers at the same time.Hard job.LOL.I am glad the Fall Fly is over for me so I can at least relax a little.
Back to George's question: I breed for both Performance & Color.I already have the Performance in my rollers and also have the Color.And Yes I do put pairs together for certain Colors but always with Performance being the First thing in my mind.So you can breed for Performance & Color you just have to know What to do and When to do it.I am having Great success with my Rollers and also having a lot of Fun along with it.
I am not posting this to keep the Color debate going but just to let everyone know it can be done if you know what you are doing and still have Rollers that Perform with the best.Weither you want to call them Birmingham Rollers or Performing Rollers makes no difference to me.They do the backward roll thingy which qualifies them to be flown in the NBRC Fall Fly and the World Cup Fly.They also will make my heart stop everytime(well almost) I fly them in my backyard when I am just flying for everyday pleasure.
Don't expect me to respond to any post as I am off hunting again.LOL.Have Fun everyone and enjoy the Rollers that you are raising.Life is Good but also Very Short.David
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Ballrollers
106 posts
Oct 21, 2005
6:05 AM
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Scott, I think you know by now that I will follow the roll......and, in all likelihood, with this family of rollers with its present-day genetic package. Kapish??
YITS Cliff
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maxspin
6 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:12 AM
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That is exactly the problem with color birds!!!
"Yes I do put pairs together for certain Colors, but always with Performance being the First thing in my mind."
This is not breeding best to best, and will not get you as far as someone who dose not pair with color in mind.
There are so many other factors that need to be considered.
How do they kit?
What is the velocity of the roll?
Too frequent, not frequent enough?
How deep?
How is the wing position?
How do they come out of the roll?
Etc. etc. etc…….
If you are pairing for certain colors you are severely limiting your options, and holding yourself back.
Keith
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