fhtfire
183 posts
Aug 17, 2005
11:01 PM
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WOuld I get rid of my Corvette if it crashed....Well, if it crashed and was an accident then no....just like a good roller that never bumps or crashes and bumped a couple of times....well it was an accident. First you guys all stated that you breed from a ROLL DOWN...now you say you are talking about a bird that bumps or a so/so rolldown....well in my book there is huge difference between a bird that bumps every now and then and one that hits the ground everytime it goes up...Or flys with the kit and then pulls out and starts getting deeper and deeper and sloppy and fighting the roll the whole way down....then takes off from the ground and hits the ground again at about 50ft off the ground...then sits on a roof for 5 hours watching the good bird roll and kit....then decides to hobble its way to the kit box...with a huge eye all swollen up and limping...so I feed the bird up and then it flyse 20 feet and hits the ground again...so I pick it up and put it in the kit box again...then I feed it up for a week or two until it heals....then I try and get it to fly again...HELL no..it does not even come out of the kit box...I have to push it out...you know why...because it is scared to death to fly....For one...that is not the bird I want to breed from..... for two what a pain in the ass to deal with feeding it up...letting it heal....three....it gets hurt...that is not fun. I have only thrown 2 or three true roll downs...out of my stock...The thought never crossed my mind to breed from one of those birds....Yes I have had some bumpers ect...but the true roll downs either took care of themselves....or I took care of them...because I do not have the time to baby one bird with all the bull crap...when I have two other kit boxes full of potential that have earned my time to take care of them.
My point is this...a so/so rolldown....maybe to bring some heat to some stiff birds.....but to me a so/so rolldown is a hot bird that bumps every now and then....now a TRUE roll down....why would I want to breed birds with issues.
Breeding best to best....well some say your birds will never improve...but to make it in my breeder loft...they have to show me the goods...like Scott said for more then 1year...the bird that you say to yourself...if I had a whole kit of these I would kick some ass!...well..your best to best is that special bird or couple of birds...picked out of 60-100 raised...So your best to best...should be damn near excellent spinners that show the 5 primary traits that TOny mentions...I do not believe that one of the traits...is a bird that hits the ground everytime if flys....I do not think that there is a multiplier in judging a kit of birds that gives extra points for how deep the bird buries its head in my back lawn...or how high it bounces of my roof.
If you have a good line of birds and select your best to best...and they produce good...then you are headed in the right direction....I am confused...if you breed best to best....are you going to lose the roll! NOPE! Mental control and a heart is what I look for in the bird that is a good spinner and I pray that it passes it on to the next generation. Play the odds...and drive the corvette that you accidently crashed after a 100+races....but the car with the big motor and no brakes....boy that is the car I want to drive in
rock and ROLL!
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
434 posts
Aug 18, 2005
3:49 AM
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Paul.O.K. Now we are on the same page.LOL.
I don,t recall anyone on this list saying we bred from rolldowns.True Rolldown anyway.Just trying to find some answers surrounding the Rolldown.I have always said there is a difference in a Rolldown and a bird that rolls down.
Scott says he won,t breed from any type of rolldown or any that bump when they come into land.
Before I forget;Scott.Yes I was joking about your roller world because that is what you are always telling me.LOL.
Birds that roll down and bumpers I don,t think is a fault but a condition that happens and this is where I won,t buy into that they need to be culled and not fit to breed from.I think this condition that causes it(whatever it is)either may not be reproduced or can be worked out in this type of roller.Just as the English breeders use a landing pole to correct the problem of birds rolling down when they are coming into land.Makes a lot of sense to me.So why not try to correct the problem in birds that rolldown.
Thor. you said that the newcomers might get confused in trying to take shortcuts in breeding rollers.Or something to that effect.I am in the process of writing an article for our upcoming bulletin and that is the title."There is no Shortcuts in Rasing Rollers".
Newcomers should never try anything but learn the Basic's of rollers untill they have their breeding program well underway.I have been there and done that.And it will set you back.David
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J_Star
30 posts
Aug 18, 2005
4:45 AM
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Food for thought to all...
Any roller that is free lofted will loose its ability to roll and roll-downs are not an exception. Therefore, how can we call it a fault when those roll down loose their ability to roll when free lofting? They are just extra hot birds that pack a lot of heat. This heat varies from roller to roller, which gives the variety of roll-downs we know of today (the stupid, the so-so, and the bumpers). When you breed your birds, you do not want that extra useless heat but you want them just right with enough heat to keep them active and at utmost performance wise.
But I sill say that you can infuse and channel some of that heat into the performance of your rollers if you know how to use it. It is a matter of knowing how. That is only my opinion but the free lofting and losing the ability to perform is a fact.
Paul, please re-read my first post about this subject. You are explaining what I’ve said in a different way. Those are the stupid roll-downs that I described and who want to breed them? Those are pure cull and no good.
Thor, In regard to the click birds you talked about at the bottom of your post, Click is just a term people use because they don’t know why the pair is so good. I don’t want to sound as an expert or a wanna be an expert because I am not, but my explanation to that is the dominant/passive genetic make up that complements the pair which makes them produce the good goods. When you have a pair of birds that pack equally dominant and the passive genetic structure would cause an equally balanced offsprings.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Aug 18, 2005 5:03 AM
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Ballrollers
63 posts
Aug 18, 2005
9:16 AM
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I think it's hard to establish a blanket policy regarding the use of rolldowns that covers every bird that rolls down and every breeding program. The cause of a bird rolling down is not black and white, but shades of gray. Some are due to an overdose of the roll impulse. Some lack the mental character to handle it. Some did not inherit the physical characteristics to control it. Some birds are lacking in all three areas, and to varying degrees. That is why, I believe, that the results vary in breeding from rolldowns. With the right pairing, perhaps some of these negatives can be overcome. It's purely a crap shoot and the odds are lesser. But is this what we want in the gene pool for our stock birds? Probably not. Can it be done, successfully, to produce kit birds with the goods, as a side project? For sure. As one's breeding program becomes moe established and the numbers of producers of quality birds increases, there will be less temptation to use such a bird with obvious defects. In the early stages of the game when you are trying to produce a few kit birds that can perform, it seems that anything goes! Our standards become tighter as we gain experience. YITS Cliff
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J_Star
31 posts
Aug 18, 2005
10:07 AM
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Cliff,
I liked your post. You wrote 'Some are due to an overdose of the roll impulse. Some lack the mental character to handle it. Some did not inherit the physical characteristics to control it. Some birds are lacking in all three areas, and to varying degrees'. But the question is then how when they are free lofted they will loose their rolling down habits? if we can answer this question, may be we can understand what causes it. Any thoughts from anybody would be greatful. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Aug 18, 2005 10:09 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
435 posts
Aug 18, 2005
10:10 AM
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Cliff.Not so in my case.I am not trying to produce kit birds or champions.I just want to know if they are useful in the breeding loft.You know what they say.Inquiring minds want to know.LOL. I have no need to use such things except for Projects.Should I stumble on to something and I thought it was good before I introduced it into my breeding loft I would ask James Turner.I never asked him about using rolldowns but I think I know what his answer would be.David
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Ballrollers
64 posts
Aug 18, 2005
12:05 PM
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David, I must have missed something in your post. You said,"I am not trying to produce kit birds or champions." If we are not breeding for performance in a kit or for an individual champion, what other reason could there possibly be for breeding? YITS Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
117 posts
Aug 18, 2005
12:57 PM
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Jay, free lofting does not shut off a roll down. It might for a select few birds. My old Platz rollers I gave away in the 80s were free lofted all the time and each and every year they rolled down more. Good for them their kit box was surrounded by two foot tall grass. I was told by my friend I gave them too that the neighbors were getting fed up with them rolling down onto their roofs.
Group--The roll is about control. If you want to add or subtract from your birds, don't think about the roll, think about the control. Control determines what you have. The roll impulse does not. Every roller has the roll impulse. Every roller does not possess good control.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
65 posts
Aug 18, 2005
1:09 PM
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Jay, Personally, I do not agree with the postulate that free-lofting a rolldown will cause them to loose their rolldown trait. But when it does seem to occur, I believe that it is related to the mental and physical "conditioning" that occurs by virtue of the limited flight available in the open loft, and the limited vision range. I have a tame old rolldown ash red bar that I keep around for fun in a free loft. In the loft, he flys around, no problem. Take him out and toss him to a friend standing a few yards away and he'll flip all the way to the other person, and sometimes hits the ground. Once on the ground, he will remain there for a long time because every time he launches, he immediately flips over backwards back on his feet. Put him back in the loft and he will fly up on the top perch-no problem. So figure that one! Cliff
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J_Star
33 posts
Aug 18, 2005
1:17 PM
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Brian,
Glad you joind. One time instead of culling a chronic stupid roll down, I took it far away from my house and released it by the hospital where allot of pigeons are. I kept checking on it now and then, that roll down became like a homer, fly like one and forge for food like one. It lost all that roll. That is what I ment by free lofting.
My question from the begining was once you have the control in your rollers and you want to improve upon them, how can you do it without outcrossing with other family. Best to best will give you one or so good bird as good or less than the parents but never better. If you want to get to the next level and establish better that what the parents are, how do you do it without introducing some heat gradually to the stock. What's left from Horner birds have exceptional control and good style with 20 to 30' roll, how can I take them to the next level say more frequency to where they do 40 breaks in 20 min? Is that possible?
Jay
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
436 posts
Aug 18, 2005
1:57 PM
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Cliff.You would have to be inside my head to know what I mean and do half the time.LOL
I have trouble putting into words what I am trying to say on a lot of things.I never made it thru the 9th grade so you have to overlook me sometimes.LOL.
What I mean is I already have my alloted kit boxes full from my main family and I am not expecting to produce a kit of rollers better than them.Strictly for experimental breedings.If no one ever uses them how will we ever know if they are useless or not.I culled hard for 3 years because that is what everyone said to do.Rolldowns,Bumpers,Out birds etc.Then I started to find out that not every cull that appeared to be a cull was one.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Aug 18, 2005 3:44 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
118 posts
Aug 18, 2005
2:10 PM
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"If you want to get to the next level and establish better that what the parents are, how do you do it without introducing some heat gradually to the stock. What's left from Horner birds have exceptional control and good style with 20 to 30' roll, how can I take them to the next level say more frequency to where they do 40 breaks in 20 min? Is that possible?"
IMHO there are several answers to that one Jay. If that were the case, I would look for the deepest, most frequent one and work from there. There is always one.
I would look for the one that is always rolling and chasing the kit (frequency).
I would get freaky with the feed and find out if what I want to see more of is achievable through management.
And last would be to seek out a bird(s) that possess the traits I would like to see in my own birds and put some test pairs down to see what the results might be.
Brian
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Ballrollers
66 posts
Aug 18, 2005
3:12 PM
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Jay, I think we always have to be vigilant in looking for a bird outside of our loft that has qualities that ours do not possesse. Personally I do so from within my chosen James Turner family of rollers or perhaps from another family that has crossed well with them. On the other hand, I have watched Joe Bob over the past couple of years, and if he found a bird or a pair of birds during a fly, that possessed some quality lacking to a lesser degree in his own birds, be it character, expression, quality, speed, frequency, depth (or some combination thereof, usually), he did not hesitate to bring it in and outcross, regardless of the family of origin. He will be the first to tell you that sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not. I always believed this to be a different and unusual breeding philosophy, but I am beginning to re-think my positon! When you think about it, Pensom didn't necessarily worry about what family of birds he was working with. If he saw a bird with the goods, he set out to get it, or better yet it's parents, to use in own breeding program. Granted, you and I are a long way from Joe Bob and WHP in our experience, so sticking with one or two families reduces the variables for us. Just my take on it! Cliff
PS I just talked with Danny Horner, who I am including in an article for the NBRC journal called "The Carolina Connection". Danny told me he has a kit of blue bars and red bars smokin' at 40-60 ft. If I flew that family, I would want to see those birds for myself!! And if they improved my gene pool, you can bet they would be added.
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Aug 18, 2005 3:16 PM
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motherlodelofts
239 posts
Aug 18, 2005
3:40 PM
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Start learning and looking at qaulity Jay , it is a rare day that a good kit can do 40 honest breaks with qaulity , without qaulity from start to finish everything else is meaningless.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 18, 2005 3:42 PM
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Velo99
70 posts
Aug 18, 2005
4:24 PM
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I have an analogy for the question of why we can`t raise"good"birds every time. How many men in the NFL and MLB have brothers/sisters who are not athleletic or as atheletic? They may be good but not good enough to be professoinals. What we are looking for is the GMC birds.
"Professional Grade"
yits
v99
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J_Star
36 posts
Aug 19, 2005
5:06 AM
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Cliff,
In early April, I called Danny to chat and ask for some youngsters to replace some of the damage the hawks done me, and he sent me two pairs of his blue/red bar birds from that kit. Back then they were just tail riding. I truly believe what he said about that kit because the ones he sent me are doing the same thing. By the way he likes blue/red bar rollers and I think those are his better producers.
Scott, quality is there in those Horner’s and the speed is there but there are always room for improvement. I would like to see some more of smoken speed and frequency (although the birds are active, but I think not as much as what I like to see). Do you have any hints of how to achieve that? I did not mean 40 breaks at all time, what I meant is allot of activity in the air….
Brian, thanks and will keep that in mind this coming breeding season. I have a few of those ones you mentioned. But if I require a certain performance, I would ask Danny to send that particular bird with that particular performance to accommodate what I am trying to achieve.
Also I have some of Paul Fullerton birds (12) (thanks Paul) which are some Scott's C., Mort Imamy, Chuck Roes, James Turner and others, I call them the California Birds. Those are the ones that I had to drive to PA to get from the main USPS hub. Right now they are tail ridding with some flips and kitting together. I hope they are as good as or better than the Horner birds and compatible with the Horner’s (North Carolina’s birds). This will allow me to select a pair or two from the east and the west coasts (best to best) to mix for trial. That would be interesting because I noticed that there are some differences between them.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
244 posts
Aug 19, 2005
7:12 AM
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Jay it boils down to making more of the best, what you are looking for just may allready be in your backyard and you just need to learn to reconize it and hone in around it.
The feed can and sparking stimulation also plays in huge.
No matter where you get your birds from it is still going to boil down to working around one or if you are lucky a couple of key birds.
In other words your work has just began and down the road if you find that you need to go outside of the family for something I would take a hard look at what is in the backyard and then ask, "Am I downbreeding what I am looking at bringing in ? " more times than not that answer is yes.
I would also be realistic and keep in mind that most (if any) new guys can't see or reconize true qaulity , it is very very important to get out and about.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 19, 2005 7:14 AM
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nicksiders
181 posts
Aug 19, 2005
8:59 PM
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I do not agree that free lofting shuts off the roll. I have often taken birds from a free loft invironment and flew them out of a kit (box) and after they got in shape rolled quite well. Rollers roll and bird dogs hunt when they are worked into shape.
Just my fifty cent worth..
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upcd
3 posts
Aug 21, 2005
1:06 AM
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Greetings Gentlemen, I have been breeding for 35 years. I have found no prefect rollers. There are many quailities in rollers. Different abilities each bird comes with. As the breeders we see what we want our rollers to do in the air. Roll Downs are important to some people. They are like finding gold. Some call them super hot, others call them a big mistake. Some pay good $ money for roll downs, while others kill them. What do you think about roll downs?
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Mongrel Lofts
24 posts
Aug 21, 2005
2:14 PM
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Greetings Gentlemen, I have been breeding for 35 years. I have found no prefect rollers. There are many utilities in rollers. Different abilities each bird comes with. As the breeders we see what we want our rollers to do in the air. Roll Downs are important to some people. They are like finding gold. Some call them super hot, others call them a big mistake. Some pay good $ money for roll downs, while others kill them. What do you think about roll downs?
UPCD,
Roll downs are for little kids and grown men who have not been around the roller enough to appreciate the quality and good breeding of sound deep spinning Roller stock. The fact that guys sell Roll downs and birds bred from roll downs as good rollers, should be a crime.. I mean if a guy sells pairs as breeders that he knows are bred from roll down culls and chronic bumpers that will produce the same, He should be ashamed!!!! Passing around Culls for good money and telling people they are getting good rollers..
Putting a pair together and they produce to hot, is one thing.. Its no accident when a man gets more than one pair of breeders and all the young roll down and bump. That is just selling crap and calling them rollers.. I would say its taking advantage of the new comers and deceiving the rest when this is done.. That is my take on Roll downs and chronic bumpers Upcd... Just my opinion on Roll downs and chronic Bumpers.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Aug 21, 2005 2:16 PM
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