Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2508 posts
Aug 22, 2010
4:06 PM
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John
Some will argue the point but I agree with you. The term Birmingham Roller or True Birmingham Roller, means different things to different people....... That alone makes communication confusing.
For this age old controversy to end, the controlling body or organization must take a stance. History is vague and very clouded, in the end all we have are opinions..... and each of us is welcome to that opinion, whatever it might be.
We have regional differences on rule interpretations, for one, we have regional differences on many varied topics. Nine times out of ten, pigeon information is passed word of mouth or since the computer age... e-mail.... both of which can be loaded with inaccuracies and can cause un-necessary pain and confusion.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 4:20 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2509 posts
Aug 22, 2010
4:16 PM
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Sal
As Joe Urbon appears to be the only guy who has been paying attention. I HAVE NEVER CROSSED ANOTHER BREED OF PIGEON INTO A ROLLER. I selected this family because in my opinion they have the total package....they are tightly line-bred, they have speed. depth. frequency, quality, they don't sky out, excellent kitting, and they are easy to train and work with. I have seen rollers all accross the country, and have worked with several families breeding and flying them out. So far I have seen none better. (When I do, I will probably start breeding and competing with them!) Some of them are as good, but with problems in some area...kitting....too high flying....not enough frequency, etc. Turner was a wizard when it comes to breeding and selecting for competition. And he wanted the color too, and nobody had done that.
WHP states very clearly that around 1958 multiple cross breeding was going on "Everywhere quite unconsciously by the non-initiated." and it was leading us no where. I do not approve of unconscious cross breeding, cross breeding by people who don't follow the genetic texts and bring the birds back to being, genetically speaking, "PURE".
Why did Turner do it? Because he could and the proof is in my loft anbd in hundreds of lofts accross the country, and the demand for them is on the increase.. It takes years and years to add a factor to a roller to the point we can treat them like any other factor.
The crossed in colors don't help the performance as far as I can tell. But from reading WHP, he knew that a good looking color bird that rolled would find a following. I think it is strictly for the eye candy effect.
I thought posts 2504 & 2502 spoke about a few WHP ideas on Colors? He had very strong opinions on hard and soft colors as do men today.
The color or the pigment on the feathers has little effect of performance. The more men who fly True Birmingham Rollers, what ever color they choose, the more strength in the breed.
Does Ash red spin better than Blue? Does Black spin better than Rec Red? Do checks spin better than Bars? Do white Flights spin better than Self's? Do colors or patterns matter?
I don't cross anything into my birds and unless you are a very educated geneticist, you shouldn't either.
This business about Twizzilers, plate, etc has been decided by the NBRC and "THEY" tell us what is score-able. In Pensom's day they valued that kind of performance. We have decided, today, that we do not.The NBRC could also set a breed standard, dictate what colors are acceptable, how big they should be how long they should be, not let Orientals be acceptable, require judges to be certified, on and on and on.
Quote: P. 10 The Birmingham Roller WHP with out friends addition
" Any pigeon that can not turn over at least ten times in a space of about four feet at the maturity of development, must be regarded as a common Tumbler. A Roller, or spinner, as same is often termed, and I think more descriptive, is a far different proposition and same is esteemed according to the distance it will roll and the velocity at which it rotates. Although of the same common stock, the Roller is to say the least, A CULTIVATED TUMBLER."
A birds "PERFORMANCE" will tell us if it is a Tumbler, a Roller, A spinner and the top rung of aerial excellence .... A TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER, not it's color or its pedigree.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 7:28 PM
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gotspin7
2705 posts
Aug 22, 2010
6:17 PM
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Cliff, good post, how long did you visit the lofts when you where looking for your stock? I do know that one visit even just once a month is not good enough, to really have a true reading of anybody's family of birds . Like I stated earlier, I will leave it alone. I will say this do, the one thing that I guess you could say bugs me a bit, is what if Mr. Turner would of just used his talent to just stick with performance, maybe the birds could of been far superior than the rest. I do agree with one thing you stated earlier " I hope everyone is enjoying their birds".
Joe, you are a true gentlemen. I need to try and be more like you!... Smile...
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Sal Ortiz
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2510 posts
Aug 22, 2010
7:04 PM
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Sal,
I tried Pensoms for a couple of years, without much luck. Then, in 2004-5, I looked up Jay Yandle who lives about 30 miles from me and had just won the NBRC 11-bird Championship. I spent most weekends with him that fall and he started picking 30-40 foot spinners out of the air and handing them to me to breed. Turner and Yandle continued to add to my stock loft over the next couple of years. Since that time I have traded closely-related birds with several others who are breeding and competing successfully with the same line...Ty Cfoleman, Jay Knepp, Joe Bob Stuka, Charlie Stack, Joe Mitchell to name a few.
I have often wondered the same thing about Turner, Sal. But in reality, he did stick with performance....just not excliusively. Hope to see you at the NBRC convention Sal. Good luck.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 7:06 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2511 posts
Aug 22, 2010
7:07 PM
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One final quote, guys P. 65 Chapter 8 The Birmingham Roller WHP 1958 Edition:
" At the outset let me say that the term BREED is often wrongly used to denote strain. In fact there is only one breed of Birmingham Roller. Generally speaking , no one has created a breed , but many fanciers have cultivated strains which often bear their names..... It is to be understood that the said flock contains some birds susceptible of producing something good. It is indeed quite common that even in large numbers of birds one does not find a single pigeon that is worthy of the consideration of the real expert. The degeneration of the Birmingham Roller pigeon is the result of multiple cross breeding , which is done everywhere quite unconsciously by the non-initiated, who wish to find some improvement in the degeneracy but , instead produce poor blood. We can therefor estimate, and without any exaggeration, that from the total number of Birmingham Rollers bred, 90% are of no value whatever. A large number of these birds do not deserve the title of Birmingham Roller , as they do not possess the necessary qualifications."
I agree with WHP, and I don't think things are any different today, based on my observations.. We must continue to raise the bar with regard to performance in our individual lofts.
Good discussion guys.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 7:16 PM
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George R.
390 posts
Aug 22, 2010
7:58 PM
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good Discussion Cliff
Just a few more questions and I am done with this post .
I know you and Gentle Johnnie and others who Fly Turners have had a problem with your Birds not wanting to Fly and also Corkscrewing into the Ground , are these two traits that come with the Turner strain ?
also I see that you fly 13 kits , are your % so bad that you have to breed and fly over 200 birds a year so that you will be able to find 20 that you can enter in either the World Cup or NCF ?
Also where did your Pensoms that you said you started with come from ?
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 8:02 PM
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birdman
835 posts
Aug 22, 2010
8:20 PM
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George, can you post a pic of you Pigeon Police badge?
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katyroller
748 posts
Aug 22, 2010
9:03 PM
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George,
Ask the top fliers in SoCal how many birds a year they breed and how many kits they are flying?
Tracey
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Bill C
539 posts
Aug 22, 2010
9:40 PM
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Why not add some fuel to the fire. LOL Not really. I will agree with Cliff the most here. Perfomance seens to fit the bill. George has a point but I look at it like this, ( as a breed ) you fly 20 birmingham rollers for a judge so score. Even though they may be a breed, it is only the performance of qualtiy birds will each udge decide was a good break and number, so the tumbler in the breed, flying will not be counted.
There you have it in a nut shell. Your both right and your both wrong depending on the angle you are looking at it. I do like performance to define the breed though. See, its impossible, the performance defines the bird not the breed, the breed is defines the birds we hope to produce the champion out of. OK I'm back and board as can be. Bill C
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 9:44 PM
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gotspin7
2706 posts
Aug 23, 2010
4:32 AM
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Cliff, I am still kicking the idea around about going...lol.. I really do want to go since it is in my old stomping grounds, the only problem is that my business just started BOOMING again. So should I take the money or loose some money? LOL.. I hope you guys have a great time!!
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Sal Ortiz
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2512 posts
Aug 23, 2010
6:08 AM
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George
These birds go through different phases of development and those phases of development are or can be affected by different types of weather. This year, all my kits are flown early in the morning before it gets hot and the wind picks up, I have seen none of the problems you referred to, as I did in the past when I tried to fly them in the evenings in 95 degree temps. My A and B teams of mature birds will always fly the time at the right height. I flew in over 90 degrees in July for our NBRC prelims and the birds flew the time, though the heat did affect their performance. I have found that even the slow flying in the heat is just a phase and as young birds mature, they develop normal flying so that I can see if they have potential to become a good Roller or not. I breed all year, round so I settle a kit a month, cull a kit a month, give away a kit a month, have birds coming into roll every month....and I don't sweat it if a bird is taken by a BOP which doesn't happen often. Then I have a kit of Scott Campbell's birds and one of Rick Schoening's that I have bred and am flying out. My percentages vary depending on the pairings, in all three families. Every year I get a higher percentage of good Turner birds as the line-breeding gets tighter. I gave Ty Coleman a kit of squeakers (Turners, of course)and he won the region with it and stocked half or more of them. I gave him another kit a year later and only two made the grade. I see the same thing at home. Some kits seem to have 75% decent spinners and some have 10%! So it varies from kit to kit. I am still working through my pairings to determine the most productive birds as I line-breed.
Cliff
PS My Pensoms came from a guy name Williams in Missouri or Kansas. I was just getting back into the hobby and I was naiive in responding to his commercial ads. I wasted good money buying birds I had not seen in the air. By the way, have you figured out how to feed those Jacs to keep them from skying out without deteriorating their peformance? That's always the juggling act with the family that you are working with, from what I have seen from them, and from what the guys around here are reporting.
Last Edited by on Aug 23, 2010 9:25 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2513 posts
Aug 23, 2010
6:24 AM
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Bill C
Great to see you posting again. Thanks for your thoughts on this subject. With Chan Grover's passing, the time you took to take Jay Alnimer and I to Chan's place after the Sacremento NBRC convention means even more to me. Thanks a million, once again. Hope to see you this week at this year's convention.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2514 posts
Aug 23, 2010
6:26 AM
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Sal
In this economy I would be very careful when it comes to doing anything that would adversely effect the bottom line. Times are just tough but I hope to see you there but will certainly understand if you choose not to.
Cliff
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Scott
3127 posts
Aug 23, 2010
8:49 AM
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Dang.. I might as well cull everything on the property.. my birds are a real pain much of the time..
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2515 posts
Aug 23, 2010
11:41 AM
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Scott
Yes but......when you get them right, they are some of the best around.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 23, 2010 1:54 PM
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gotspin7
2707 posts
Aug 23, 2010
12:20 PM
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Scott, are you getting a little sensitive? Wow! What have those car salesmen done to you? LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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ezeedad
1131 posts
Aug 23, 2010
3:36 PM
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Bringing this rambling thread back to the beginning...
I think the bird in the picture might be a Vienna Gansel Short Faced Tumbler..
Paul Gomez
Last Edited by on Aug 23, 2010 3:37 PM
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George R.
391 posts
Aug 23, 2010
6:03 PM
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Cliff
I have never had a problem with my Birds flying to High , I am not sure where you heard that. my Birds fly at a good hieght approz 250 feet and they do need to be at that hieght since lots of them are dropping 40 to 60 feet.
Last Edited by on Aug 23, 2010 6:03 PM
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J_Star
2316 posts
Aug 24, 2010
5:23 AM
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George, that is great. Are you winning your club friendly competitions every time or most of the time?
I have the Horner birds and I can attest with Cliff that they have flying high and fast problems. However, once you understand them and adjust the feed, they problems can be controlled. I was never able to get them to fly the way I want then on Wheat alone as Danny Horner tells me how he feeds them.
Jay Alnimer
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2516 posts
Aug 24, 2010
5:56 AM
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Jay,
Yeah....it's not what I have HEARD, but what I have SEEN. Clay Hoyle struggles with it, my brother struggles with it...Horner himself struggles with it. When these kits are released, if they are on the strong side at all, they become little dots in the stratosphere. Of course, when they get the feed can right, as you said, these birds can perform with the best of them. But, just a few grains of wheat too much and they sky out! Too little and they become loose and sloppy. Clay has been working with family outcrosses for many years trying to breed this tendency out of his Horner Jacs....By the way, what time do you get in on Thursday? Me and Wendall get in about 3:30 in the afternoon. See you then.
George,
Then you are handling them like a pro.
Good Luck in your comps.
Cliff
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Scott
3128 posts
Aug 24, 2010
7:36 AM
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The problem with high flying families is obviously trying to hold them down once they are mature as youngbirds they are much easier to handle .. but they are at their best as old birds.
With low flying families it is trying to get them up high enough to roll properly and to keep from slamming the roof or the dirt.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2517 posts
Aug 24, 2010
7:58 AM
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Scott,
I find the same thing with my family. Once mature, they are much easier to handle. My comp team birds never bump, and they fly at a good height. I will begin flying the standout young birds that have depth in the A-team because they will elevate and the chances of them hurting themselves, until they mature,is reduced.
Cliff
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J_Star
2319 posts
Aug 25, 2010
4:48 AM
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Cliff, I found the Horner's feed solution after several years of trying. You know I complained to you about their high flying several time in the past...but no more. I will tell you the trick when I see you in LA to tell Clay so that he can give it a shot. The feed portion and mix that I mentioned on the other thread does the job perfect as they mature and while they are matured.
Last year or the year before, I argued with Chuck on RPDC about the Horner's high flying, and he claimed his birds don't and insisted that Wheat alone is the way to go. I told him that he will find out soon enough.
I will arrive in LA at 2:22pm. I have a non-stop flight from Cleveland to LA. Shall I wait for you guys at the airport since you will arrive shortly after my arrival? If so let me know what gate, the flight number and which airline.
Jay Alnimer
Last Edited by on Aug 25, 2010 4:57 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
693 posts
Aug 25, 2010
9:15 AM
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Cliff/George,
I keep 3 different families of birds. My main family is a Paul Vaughn based family of Pensoms. I also have a Turner/Yandle based family of indigo/andys and I have a family of Horner Jacs that I have been working with for the past 2 years. These Jacs all have 580 and 788 up front within 2 generations. The Jacs fly at a nice height, are easy to handle and kit very well but the Pensoms and Turners spin circles around them as far as velocity and style. Last year I raised 12 of the Jacs off the 2 pair Danny sent me. 3 were taken by the sky shark, 1 is in the B kit and the other 8 were culled. I have raised 16 this year so I will see if the results are any better. All 3 families are fed the same wheat/milo/safflower mix. I would never feed the birds straight wheat in this climate. Have fun at the convention, wish I could make it.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2518 posts
Aug 25, 2010
9:37 AM
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Joe,
No surprise hear. That is exactly the same thing I have observed. You are dealing with a relatively small sample, so it will be interesting to see if your percentages are any different as you raise more of each family. Good luck!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 25, 2010 9:38 AM
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Robert Pelham
89 posts
Aug 25, 2010
11:29 AM
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There is a photo of Pensom in front of his green loft. With a kit of birds on the ground if you take a good look there is a yellow in that photo.and my friend has a pagent report where Pensom had a yellow in the show.Chan Grover had cream bars with a peek crest. The color has all way been there!
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Ty Coleman
875 posts
Aug 25, 2010
4:01 PM
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George you don't ever get tired of kicking the same old Dog ? I will try and answer one question for you though. As far as low flying birds in the Turner family , it was set in from the beginnig with the Lyod Thompson family of birds. "they were lazy and hard to get to fly. Once in the air they were great spinners " The crossing of the Pensom and Thompson birds produced what James Turner was looking for in Performance.One lacked performance but had a good flying style, the other lacked flying style but had a great performance so the two were merged and as people know bad traits pop back up here and there. I have had a problem with a few kits over the years and when I put the effort in to figuring it out it is normally one or two birds messing up the kit so to me it would be harsh to trash the entire family because of a few culls here and there.
Joe, Tony Roberts flew the Paul Vaughn birds for several years and as I was told he was a force to reckon with in the air with them. Inbreeding brought them down though after several years.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
876 posts
Aug 25, 2010
4:11 PM
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One other thing that gets me is some always want to kick the Turners as mongrels,mutts,crosses and so forth. If any of you took the time to listen to James or even to read a pedigree you may want to recant a few statements about his birds. Several of his subfamilies are as pure as the ones casting the stones. Yep pure Birminghams, no color outcrosses. Many of you are probably familiar with the "Rambo" line, Blue bars, checks, and grizzles pure back to Pensom and Thompson. Imagine that !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
694 posts
Aug 25, 2010
5:19 PM
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Ty,
Been working with the Vaughn line for almost 30 yrs. I actually have 2 closely related branches of that family so I can cross the back and forth periodically to keep the vitality in the line. My Turner Andy/Indigo line is crossed into one side of the Vaughn line so they are excellent producers if I could just keep the sky sharks at bay.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2519 posts
Aug 25, 2010
6:41 PM
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Thanks for that excellent input, Ty. Glad to see they got your internet back on line in your neighborhood!
John,
That Paul Vaughn cross sounds like a cross with outstanding possibilities.....as far as outcrosses go.....and of course some idiot may try to say that you HAD to outcross in order to keep the performance of the Turners stable!! LOL!.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 25, 2010 6:44 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
695 posts
Aug 25, 2010
6:49 PM
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Cliff,
You know what Ron "Tater Salad" White says, You can't fix stupid!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2520 posts
Aug 26, 2010
3:43 AM
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Hey Jay,
I'll just meet you at the hotel in LA, OK? See you there!
Cliff
Joe,
Good one!! You got that right!!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2010 3:44 AM
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