steve49
526 posts
Jun 25, 2010
5:09 PM
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i left a bottle of wazine wormer in an outdoor shed this past winter. should i throw it away? i wormed my birds with it the first week of june, and a couple still feel thin, and i'm not cutting back their feed.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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wannaroll
207 posts
Jun 25, 2010
6:55 PM
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Your wormer should be fine. Wazine is a mild food grade wormer and has a long shelf life.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
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winwardrollers
495 posts
Jun 25, 2010
9:08 PM
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Steve
Just throw the wormer in the garbge and you will be fine without it.
Like you just stated the birds "still feel thin"...birds didn't need to be wormed... is my bet by guessing where you live. Most worm their roller and have no reasoning behind it, other than someone told someone who told someone bad information to begin with.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2010 9:04 AM
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Raul Carreiro
41 posts
Jun 26, 2010
8:51 AM
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is wazine wormer affected by the cold? Only if the beer added to it for them to drink is too cold LOL!
Raul.
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JMUrbon
1062 posts
Jun 26, 2010
9:01 AM
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No truer statement could be said Brad. That goes with many of the other medications given. The more you give the birds the weaker their immune system becomes. In 30 years I have wormed my birds once and I dont know why I did it then. Keep the food clean and the loft dry and they will pay you back by staying healthy. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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steve49
527 posts
Jun 26, 2010
4:35 PM
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sorry if i gave the impression my birds weren't healthy. i felt one youngster (2 months) has felt thin because i was keeping him with an older kit so he may not have been getting sufficient nutrition. i only have 2 kitboxes, and i was given 4 squeakers in april that i had to settle with my older birds. yes, i admit to worming my birds, and only because i was told i needed to. i specifically built my double kitbox with 1x2 wire mesh floors to keep the birds off their droppings as much as possible. the whole worming controversy seems to keep coming up. the breeder of my birds suggested i do it and i did. i don't believe at this time its anymore than prevention. worms are a common parasite, and they will harm birds, especially youngsters. its the weakening of the birds that makes them an easier target for further infestations or a weaker immune system. i'm open to change, but since i've wormed my birds previously and they only seemed better afterwards i'm hesitant not to continue.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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polarbear
119 posts
Jun 26, 2010
5:04 PM
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Steve if you want to worm them and are worried about the medication being good, just throw it away and buy a new bottle.
I would feel more comfortable and secure using a new bottle,than risking the birds health over a bottle of fairly cheaply priced wormer that possibly is no good.
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TheGame
771 posts
Jun 26, 2010
7:09 PM
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Steve I bought a bottle of the Wazine wormer not too long ago because I thought I could mix it in the birds bath water to get rid of feather lice but that doesnt seem the case. That stuff I picked up from Joe is working like a charm..by the next day my birds were 99% free of feather lice.
If you want my bottle you can have it. I have the Moxidectin that I will continue to use as a wormer since you only have to worm once with this. Theres no following through the 7th or 14th day or w/e. So I will have no use for the Wazine. Let me know.
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2010 7:10 PM
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steve49
528 posts
Jun 27, 2010
6:18 AM
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Game, thanx for the offer. i've been putting off getting the moxidectin, so now i guess its tthe right time. glad you've got that feather lice thing in check
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2483 posts
Jun 28, 2010
12:35 PM
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bwinward,
That may be bad advice that your giving steve, IMHO. I lost a couple of fat and healthy-looking breeders last winter. I took them in to an avian pathologist for necropsy and he determined the cause of death to be roundworms. I thought, "No way!" The breeders have no exposure to other birds or to the ground, plus I worm them twice a year. The avian pathologist said that the majority of pigeons that he necropsies, die due to roundworm infestation. Larval hatches in the gut can result in migration to key organs and cause death by organ-failure, not emaciation of the host as we commonly expected. He recommended worming pigeons every 90 days with Moxydectin. He also indcated that Wazine is only like 60% effective....and that using cattle and sheep wormers reduces your chances of getting an effective dose to each bird to practically nil. Based on his recommendations, Steve, I'd recommend that you scratch the Wazine and get yourself some Moxydectin. I wish I would have had gotten this advice earlier. I wouldn't have lost a few key breeders in my program. (www.siegelpigeons.com)
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 1:21 PM
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winwardrollers
496 posts
Jun 28, 2010
1:39 PM
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Cliff
The difference is that you live in the south and Steve lives in the north, is what I am thinking. Climate would be the difference between the two of you.
I have visited with Dr. Workman that lives by me and he highly discourages worming in our area. He has cut birds open at the university lab and has found no worms but other symptoms that the bird have suffer from.
So are you going to worm your birds every ninety days cliff? Sounds like bad advise to me. A dry loft will will take care of the problem for the most part to begin with. Cliff do you have moisture problem in your breeding loft?
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 2:03 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1870 posts
Jun 28, 2010
1:58 PM
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I am curious, as understand it worms are an infestation not an infection. Worms can be picked up from feed, grass, other birds not from your loft, such as strays or wild birds or numerous other ways. I agree not to over medicate birds but to not treat for a parasite seems detrimental to me.
Brian, if your vet advises against worming, what harm did he give as a reason? What harm would be done to a healthy bird that did not have worms but was dosed as a precaution? I worm my birds twice a year but after reading the report Cliff provided, I am seriously thinking about every three months.
With respect
Thom
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winwardrollers
497 posts
Jun 28, 2010
2:24 PM
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Oldfart
If you think you have worms problem I would worm them as well. If you need to worm more than two times a year I would looking for the real source to the problem.
They can test your pigeon droppings for worms.
Just don't over dose if you use or you will sterilize your breeders for half the year is what he has told me. I have seen overdose breeders not lay for 6 months a few times that is not fun.
Mix some worm-er in your orange juice tomorrow morning just in case you have picked up a worm or two Thom...lol
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 2:29 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1871 posts
Jun 28, 2010
2:40 PM
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Brad, sorry about the wrong name. It is not uncommon for people to have worms, actually it is more common then you might think. I use a pill form of worm medication, it is more tedious but I know each bird only gets what is recommended.
I just might mix a little in my coffee in the morn, can't hurt and I have been feeling a little peckish lately! :)
Take care
Thom
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steve49
529 posts
Jun 28, 2010
4:33 PM
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i think there are other factors that might increase worm risk besides location. Brad, even though i live in the north east, my birds still can be exposed to worms and i feel its better to be proactive, especially if some symptoms might be pointing in that direction. its all good, and i'm glad to hear opposing views, so thanx for expressing yours.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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winwardrollers
498 posts
Jun 28, 2010
4:53 PM
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Steve
I agree there are other factors as well that could increase the risk of worms but look at it this way I'm not going to trap Polar bear where I live and either are you, therefor the risk of other factors don't even play in.
What are some of your symptoms that make you think you should worm? I really don't care what you do when it comes to worming I'm just interested in the reasoning behind it.
I'm just bored so don't take me to serious..lol
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 5:02 PM
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steve49
530 posts
Jun 28, 2010
5:03 PM
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first of all, using wazine itself is a low dose treatment, and probably is not as effective as i origianlly thought. plus, it only targets roundworms. moxidectin, i feel is a better choice, since it is effective against other intestinal parasites. i rec'd 4 squeakers back in april, and i know the breeder hadn't wormed them. i become more concerned when a month after i settled them, one rolled down, but luckily was unhurt. after examining the bird, i was shocked at how thin it was. it rolling down was most likely caused or contributed by its weight, so that's why I wormed both kits. a few weeks after worming, the bird still felt thin, and i'm almost certain its the wazine. i'm keeping the bird locked up for now, until it gets some weight back on, and will retry worming with moxidectin. Brad, i just can't do nothing, so this is the treatment i'm going to do.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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winwardrollers
499 posts
Jun 28, 2010
9:57 PM
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Steve
Put the thin bird in a pen and feed it small amounts, this will tell you what feed it is not picking up. Watch it eat it will tell you alot about this birds eating habits. I am guessing you have a picky eater, this can be changed if caught early.
Bwinward
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
882 posts
Jun 28, 2010
10:55 PM
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Thom...When you go fishing you already have the bait.lol
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2485 posts
Jun 29, 2010
9:04 AM
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winward,
I agree with Thom. I don't think cold weather plays quite as crucial a roll in keeping down parasitic problems, as it may have with bacterial and viral infections. Same with moisture. Parasitc worm eggs do not require moisture to be infectious. Eggs are shed through the feces of birds and pigeons and will remain dormant in the feces of a dry loft until eaten by a pigeon picking around in the litter. Many worms use insects as an intermediate host during their lifecycle. So wild birds crapping on a fly pen, crickets, flies, grasshoppers, etc can all bring the eggs into our lofts, according to the avian pathologist I spoke with. If a pigeon that has been recently wormed, picks up eggs, the next day or weeks away, that were shed by another pigeon or insect in a dry loft, that bird will become infested with worms again. They will usually not have any spcific symptoms, especially in a well-fed stock loft. It is usually the squeakers that succomb to the worms or coccidiosis after the worms have weakened these weanlings. But occaisionally, if the adult pigeons are not wormed effectively, an apparrently healthy breeder can drop dead suddenly when a massive larval hatch migrates through a vital organ of the pigeon causing sufficient tissue damage to the vital organ. I was using Foy's Wormout gel in the spring and fall. I still give it to the squeakers when they are weaned,in tablet form, but I treat the entire flock with Moxydectin in the water four times a year now. Why take the chance? Speaking from experience, I would say that you are making a wise decision, Steve.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2010 9:10 AM
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TheGame
778 posts
Jun 29, 2010
10:40 PM
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Since we are talking about worming now...
Whats the best time of the year or at what age is it good to worm young birds?
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winwardrollers
501 posts
Jun 30, 2010
6:18 AM
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Cliff
The ascaris roundworm is transmitted mainly through feces and is thus prevalent in areas with poor sanitation.
It may just be the conditions in your heated loft. We have Joe that has not had worms for 30 years and those who have to treat all the time, what I am getting at is that worm prevention starts way before the medicine bottle.
I realize you have picked up worms from somewhere, the question is why are they continually cropping up.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2010 6:25 AM
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wannaroll
211 posts
Jun 30, 2010
9:42 PM
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Wazine - each 100ml contains 17 grams of Piperazine Base. (present as sulfate)
Dr. Chalmers says.....
Worms.
There are two major species of worms that cause problems in pigeons: roundworms (Ascaridia spp.) and threadworms or hairworms (Capillaria spp.). Roundworms live free in the intestines and threadworms bury their heads into the wall of the intestine.
i) Roundworms -- these worms are fairly large, and measure 1 1/2 to 2" or more in length. They are believed to compete with the pigeon for nutrients in the intestines, so in heavy infestations, roundworms can be another cause of "going light" because they absorb nutrients that the pigeon needs. In light infestations, these worms tend to gather in the upper part of the intestines, close to the proventriculus and gizzard. In heavy infestations they spread out along the entire intestinal tract and may even be found in the droppings. In large numbers roundworms can effectively block the intestines, and food has a very difficult time passing through.
Female roundworms lay many thousands of eggs regularly, so it doesn't take long for the loft to become heavily contaminated. Soon after they are passed in droppings, eggs aren't able to cause infection in pigeons, even if they are picked up from the floor and swallowed. The eggs need time -- about 2 weeks -- in damp, cool conditions for a young worm to develop. At this stage, if droppings containing eggs have contaminated feed or grit, or if birds are just picking on the floor and swallow eggs, the young worm hatches in the intestines, and over time, becomes an adult -- and the cycle repeats. If loft conditions are too dry, the thick wall of the eggs protects them from dehydration, and they remain dormant until conditions for development are more favorable. They can live in this way for years if necessary.
The only truly effective way to break the cycle after you have eliminated the adults from the intestines is to burn all floor surfaces with a torch. Hot lye (i small can of Gillett's lye to 5 gallons of very hot water) also works but there is always the risk of alkali burns to yourself or your birds when lye is used. If you use lye, all surfaces that it has touched have to be well flushed with clean water after the lye has had a chance to act.
Treatments include the old drug piperazine, but it is only 60-80% effective in killing worms in the intestines. According to Dr Marx, Tramisol, Ivomec and Telmintic are still 80-90% effective, even though worm resistance to Ivomec is developing.
ii) Threadworms (Hairworms) -- these worms are very small (up to 1/4 " long) and very thin, so seeing them in the intestines is very difficult, and requires special techniques. Because these worms bury their front ends right into the wall of the intestines, they cause tissue damage and irritation that can result in hemorrhage, diarrhea and loss of weight. Like roundworm eggs, those of the threadworm are not infective when they are passed in droppings, but need about a week in damp, cool conditions for the development of a young worm. Piperazine and Tramisol aren't effective against these worms. The best drugs continue to be Ivomec and Telmintic.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2010 9:44 PM
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winwardrollers
504 posts
Jul 01, 2010
8:15 AM
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Dave
I find this interesting in the article..."Like roundworm eggs, those of the threadworm are not infective when they are passed in droppings, but need about a week in damp, cool conditions for the development of a young worm."
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2010 8:17 AM
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steve49
532 posts
Jul 01, 2010
12:19 PM
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i think the word 'infective' is improperly used. it is not really an 'INfection', but rather a infestation or parasitation. either way, its a serious situation, and i'm wondering why Brad is the only oponent to voice his opinion here.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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