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World cup in Europe


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jim
259 posts
Jun 21, 2010
6:26 AM
The first competitors flew in Europe and the results are the same as last year. How do u feel about it?

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Jim "Mason"
http://www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
2008 World Cup Qualifier
2008 Regional Winner
2008 3rd in South Africa Nationals
2009 Winner South African Nationals
2010 Anglo Africa Cup Finalist
Photobucket

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 6:32 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4101 posts
Jun 21, 2010
6:59 AM
Once is nice, twice is a fortunate coincidence, three times is a pattern. ;-)
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Scott
3089 posts
Jun 21, 2010
7:06 AM
Eric is a top line flyer Jim .. what is your point ?
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
jim
260 posts
Jun 21, 2010
7:51 AM
Hi Scott,

I agree Eric is a good flyer and he might even win this year. My point is the scores are exactly the same as last year when Hannes was the just. The very first kit he judged in Europe took the lead.

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Jim "Mason"
www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
2008 World Cup Qualifier
2008 Regional Winner
2008 3rd in South Africa Nationals
2009 Winner South African Nationals
2010 Anglo Africa Cup Finalist
Photobucket

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 7:55 AM
Scott
3090 posts
Jun 21, 2010
8:53 AM
What are you trying to do Jim.. rub our noses in it ? we have a few of our own bad sportsman over here due to it.. you just joined that list.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
Raul Carreiro
26 posts
Jun 21, 2010
9:36 AM
The World Cup in Europe! No its in South Africa LOL (Soccer)YEAH!
Raul.
michael salus
243 posts
Jun 21, 2010
9:48 AM
Jim, At 1st I thought you from the USA and were complaining about the judge , but then I looked and saw you are from SA. I think I know what your getting at.....
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MJ "Peace"

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 4:05 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4102 posts
Jun 21, 2010
9:58 AM
Stead of getting mad at Jim, use what you think his words are implying and use them to motivate yourself to get your birds ready for the next comp. Put up or shut up is what I always heard.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria


The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
jim
261 posts
Jun 21, 2010
10:43 AM
Hi Scott, I definitely don’t want to be part of that bad sportsman list. Tony is right I actually want to help you and have no intention of breaking you down (been part of this Roller website for many on and off years. The best advice I ever got was from Big Al on this website). About eight years ago SA were on the wrong track but previous judges never pointed this out to us causing us to carry on as usual. An English judge came to SA, half of the competitors wanted to give up after the English was here. We realized we were on the wrong track and it took us many years to work on quality, depth and team work.

I blame the previous judges from America that saw that the rest of the world was getting ahead of us but never admitted this to their own country.



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Jim "Mason"
www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
2008 World Cup Qualifier
2008 Regional Winner
2008 3rd in South Africa Nationals
2009 Winner South African Nationals
2010 Anglo Africa Cup Finalist
Photobucket
gotspin7
2678 posts
Jun 21, 2010
10:47 AM
Tony, I agree with you on this one 100% ---------- Salvador Ortiz
michael salus
244 posts
Jun 21, 2010
11:16 AM
I forgot to congratulate Eric on a good kit. It must have been a fun one to watch. Tony, I've read Jim's post a few times and I'm still getting the same message. Maybe I'm reading to much into it and if I am I apologize. I don't fly comp. anymore, so maybe I shouldn't post on this, but the fly isn't over and were already being lectured on how to breed the Birmingham Roller. We might have to work on the teamwork part, but the Depth and Quality in our rollers is as good as anyone's. I've never been to Europe and SA, but I've seen Mason's fly, so I know what they can do.Maybe we should wait a month until it's over and congratulate the winner and all those who participated and wait to see what the judge has to say, after all he seen them all. P.S. I'm not mad at anyone...lol
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MJ "Peace"

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 2:09 PM
James Herring
3 posts
Jun 21, 2010
11:32 AM
What are you guys Trying to do with this Roller site? I have just recently joined but, what I see more than anything is just a bunch of bickering back and forth. In my opinion a Roller site like Tony's should be used to exchange good sound information, to help further our sport. If you have any personal diagreements about your birds, Get a judge and put them in the air. I joined to learn more about our sport, and I think this site shouls be focused on that.
rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
307 posts
Jun 21, 2010
11:48 AM
James welcome here if you want to learn you came to the write place there are 6 years of post's you can search site or just pick a page and read on.Oh and as far as these guys throwing a hook or a jab they been doing it for 6 yrs. and will continue doing it.Rookie
wishiwon2
335 posts
Jun 21, 2010
12:42 PM
James,

"What are you guys trying to do with this Roller site? ... what I see more than anything is just a bunch of bickering back and forth. In my opinion a Roller site like Tony's should be used to exchange good sound information, to help further our sport. ... I joined to learn more about our sport, and I think this site shouls be focused on that. "

I hope that you are able to learn more about rollers and flying them here. Very few things are absolute about flying rollers. So there is bound to be some discussion that disagrees. I believe it does get personal from time to time, it shouldnt. Tony does a good job keeping most that tone off this list. We are passionate about what we do, which is a good thing, as long as we keep ourselves civil.

I say the following, not trying to sound arrogant, God knows I have yet to make much improvement.
There is only so much to discuss about a roller pigeon ... After that, it becomes the application of the information, which takes considerable time (years). There have been several books written and pages of internet posts created ... there comes a point of satiety of information exchange. There is only so much to discuss ... The rest is in the application.

Im not claiming I know it everything about rollers. But having read most of what has been written on this site (and others)for the past several years, every aspect related to rollers has been discussed in one way or another. Any new discussion or exchange, is sure to be laden with opinion. That will lead to disagreements, plain and simple. Other exchange will be a re-hashing of old info. and the opinions will swirl there too.

What Im trying to say is, that outside of basic pigeon keeping knowledge (health, housing, breeding, etc), there isnt alot of universal truths about rollers. There are no shortcuts and very few secrets. To discuss rollerisms over and over rarely leads to new understanding. Most valuable to learning about them is the application of basic common sense observations.
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Jon

If it were easy, everybody would do it
wishiwon2
336 posts
Jun 21, 2010
1:15 PM
Jim,

I think we have had judges here (US) that have told us we need to step up our game if we want to stay competative. But instead of taking it to heart, many of us have argued that the judge is too this or too that and biased towards US fliers ... or attempted to justify ourselves by claiming we have birds with this or that attribute that is superior to any other. Or that we are disadvantaged here because of the time of year, weather conditions, BOP or a host of other reasons. All of the above may actually be true... But the bottom line is guys from other places around the world are wining consistently, and we in the US are not.

In the US, as a hobby we have difficulty making a paradigm shift in what our expectations of Birmingham rollers are and they are capable of. Many of us continue to cite the standard found in Levis writings as the absolute. Others have our heads buried in pedigrees from great birds of the past or bloodlines which descend from previous champion lofts. Others still, elect to debate the rules, trying to fit them to their own birds instead of changing how we breed and fly birds that fit the rules better. Instead we ought to take a hard look at ourselves and make what changes we deem needed. Losing sucks, it hurts our pride. I believe there are those who will persevere and step up their flying game from here in US. Those who sit at the top of this game should not feel too comfortable because change is coming. Its all in good sport, but Ive learned from competing in other sports, when you're on top, everybody is gunning for you and its hard to stay there.

I admire excellence, no matter what form it takes, congrats to those who have done well thus far, and good luck to those yet to compete.
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Jon

If it were easy, everybody would do it
kcfirl
651 posts
Jun 21, 2010
1:20 PM
I judged the current 3rd place guy Wayne Feder. He has 34 breaks in the prelim and only half that many in the finals when his birds shut down the final 10 minutes.

I am absolutely sure Erik put up the best kit based on the rules for this competition. I have seen George Mason and Heine fly these English based birds and they break together better than any.

Congrats Erik!

Sincerely,

Ken Firl

PS. Wayne's birds are also mostly Masons.
rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
663 posts
Jun 21, 2010
2:25 PM
Wow
I just looked at the score. Erik's kit was just awesome to get that score and multipliers.
We in the US did not have a single kit with a 1.5 quality and only one with a 1.5 depth. I hope someone recorded that kit.
I have a lot of work to do! better go re-asses my breeders.

RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
677 posts
Jun 21, 2010
3:59 PM
So Scott, I guess now everyone that doesn't agree with you is a bad sportsman. Give me a break. You've been drinking your own bathwater too long friend.
I have recently acquired 4 pair of very nice Belgian imported racers and that will be my focus in the future. Hard to argue with the clock.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 4:05 PM
Scott
3091 posts
Jun 21, 2010
5:51 PM
Joe.. I have stood under kits with every finals judge for the past 12 years or so.. this guy wasn't tough at all.
Good luck with the racers Joe .. keep in touch !
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
Scott
3092 posts
Jun 21, 2010
6:08 PM
Great post Jon !! I say step up the game.. not whine about it and blame the judges.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
jim
262 posts
Jun 21, 2010
9:29 PM
Hi everybody this is exactly what I mean. All in favour of the hobby. Even now with the Anglo cup someone flew a exhibition kit and the judge told him this is tumblers not rollers. The fancier was very upset as he has been flying this type of kit for many years. Not even his club was honest with him. I am not putting anybody down I know there is good kits in America .

In my club we fly our own rules. 2 Judges, 1 judge quality and 1 judge the breaks. Every quality bird 10 points, breaks no multification no depth. The guys enjoy it because there can be no arguments.
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Jim "Mason"
www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
2008 World Cup Qualifier
2008 Regional Winner
2008 3rd in South Africa Nationals
2009 Winner South African Nationals
2010 Anglo Africa Cup Finalist
Photobucket

Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2010 9:32 PM
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
678 posts
Jun 22, 2010
5:54 AM
Scott,
I have no problem with Adrian's judging. By all accounts he has been excellent and fair. My problem with roller competition these days is the hubris of some and the constant bickering over interpretations of the rules and standards. It has become nonsensical and I believe some perpetuate it just because it gives them a sense of self-importance.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Scott
3093 posts
Jun 22, 2010
6:11 AM
Joe.. interpiting standards ? not sure what that means..
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
679 posts
Jun 22, 2010
7:38 AM
Scott, How about "raising the bar" or X wing rollers or when does competition begin, upon release or when the clock starts, number of birds released vs number in air at time in, yada, yada,yada. Does any of that ring a bell?
Not really pointing the finger at anyone person but this whining and bickering in competition flys is out of control. Not any fun any more!!
Clock works better for me!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Scott
3094 posts
Jun 22, 2010
7:58 AM
I honestly don't pay much attention to it Joe.. just pigeon politics..other than the internet to pluck at not much different than other sports that I have been involved in..you have the same thing where some want it dummied down to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy... kinda like what the liberals have done to our school system... everyone is a winner .. at least until they hit the real world.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "

Last Edited by on Jun 22, 2010 8:03 AM
winwardrollers
488 posts
Jun 22, 2010
10:22 AM
Jim
If you add up Northern Americas winners then and up all winner of worldcupfly across the pond you will find that it is a pretty even distribution. 12 wins for the first and 9 wins for the last. Add this year in and you have 10 wins for all non-north American countries.
It seem to me that when an area of the country/world does good a pattern continues for that year. Those flying in the first half of world cup didn't fly well it is just that simple wither the birds were affected by weather or the kit master tweaked the birds it really doesn't matter. There will be good rollers at the loft that has a strict dedication to prepare, breed and willingness to compete. It doesn't matter where they live or who is the judge, great birds will rise to the top and be noticed.
I watched the judge score one kit this year and thought he was actually much more generous than I. I have full confidence in the judge finding the hardest working best kit, if not, superior kits will come out at least close to the top. What I take more stock in, is a pattern that a single flier puts out during competitions over the years that you can see some consistency in, very few have come up with a worthy record in any part of the world.
I have found in sports competitions, which does translate to this hobby that some simply spend most of their time worrying about rules and regulations, while others come to plan the game. When coaching a basketball player, I asked him to shut his mouth because he was not scoring any points with his mouth, and start using his hands and feet more.
This is a good roller completion...the table can turn fast.
bwinward

Last Edited by on Jun 23, 2010 10:18 AM
kcfirl
653 posts
Jun 22, 2010
10:32 AM
Scott,

everyone likes to say the school system has dummed down our kids. I'll tell you what, my kids have way more homework and are much smarter than I was at their age.

It's not the school system that's failed out kids, is us. Education begins in the home.

Sincerely,

Ken Firl
michael salus
245 posts
Jun 22, 2010
11:16 AM
Ken, I agree with you completely,I have had 4 kids go thew public schools and 3 to college and never had a problem... The kids know way more than we ever did at their ages.... but I think were being sucked into something..... I do know it's all the liberals fault.... Scott said so...
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MJ "Peace"
jim
263 posts
Jun 23, 2010
1:37 AM
Place Flyer Region Breaks Q D Score

1 Eric Laidler Denmark 5-5-6-8-7-7-6-6-7-8-11-5 / 5-7-10-7-12-14-5-6 / 5-7-11-5-14-16 / 6-5-6-5-10-7-6-7-8-7
1.5 1.5
873

2.Heine Bijker Holland 7-9-9-7-10-11-9-6-8-5 / 8-8-9-5-8-7-11-7-6-5-12 / 7-6-6-8-6-10 / 5-14-7
1.3 1.3
513.76

3.Aubrey Thibodeaux
South Central - East
5-6-6-7-7-5 / 6-10-7-8-7-11-8-5-5 / 6-14-5-9 / 8-9
1.4
1.4
370.44


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Jim "Mason"
www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
2008 World Cup Qualifier
2008 Regional Winner
2008 3rd in South Africa Nationals
2009 Winner South African Nationals
2010 Anglo Africa Cup Finalist
Photobucket

Last Edited by on Jun 23, 2010 1:40 AM
winwardrollers
490 posts
Jun 23, 2010
10:26 AM
Jim
What I get out of the numbers posted is that the top teams are rolling about two times in a minute at this point. The tandem Q, D, multipliers for each kit is interesting.
bwinward

Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2010 8:36 PM
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4357 posts
Jun 23, 2010
10:56 AM
I believe we are going to have a 1000+ point champion this year.
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
kcfirl
654 posts
Jun 23, 2010
11:51 AM
Well then it won;t be legitimate, or the judge will admit later that he was too lenient, or it will be a freak occurrence.

Come on Nick, everyone knows there is no such thing as a legitimate 1000 pt kit!

KEN
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4358 posts
Jun 23, 2010
4:56 PM
LMAO - Ken
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
birdman
828 posts
Jun 24, 2010
5:30 PM
How can any of the scores really be legitimate?

The points are all based on a judges "best calculated GUESS".
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4361 posts
Jun 24, 2010
6:31 PM
Some judges just "calculate" or "guess" better than others, Russ(LOL)
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Think Outside The Box
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Nick Siders
Scott
3097 posts
Jun 24, 2010
8:41 PM
I may be wrong.. but my money says this fly is over.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "
winwardrollers
492 posts
Jun 24, 2010
9:13 PM
Scott
I had the same thought, but then they still have plenty of teams in Africa and the home country to judge yet...and don't forget the last team to fly in the worldcup..lol
Laider has a pretty solid score it will be interesting.
bwinward
Scott
3098 posts
Jun 24, 2010
10:09 PM
Brad.. what I see and saw is he is looking for real breaks .. that alone really knocks things into reality.
Plus he won't pull the trigger on the big breaks unless he knows for sure that it is deserved .. I think he saw a jaw dropper at Erics ..I figured he would get in the 6-8 hundred range with the right kit.
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Scott Campbell

" God Bless "

Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2010 10:25 PM
winwardrollers
493 posts
Jun 24, 2010
11:41 PM
Scott
Eric Laidler cheeks are probably sore from grinning the last few days..good for him.
Ceda scored 400 & odd pts, puts him in 3rd place,
1.6Q x 1.4D.
bwinward

Last Edited by on Jun 24, 2010 11:54 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2472 posts
Jun 25, 2010
4:50 AM
birdman
I would say it this way:
The points are all based on the judges best estimate of the number of birds rolling in unison, that meet his most accurite, minimum estimate of 10 feet or more and are given a Quality multiplier based on the AVERAGE over-all quality observed by the birds that were counted in the breaks and given a depth multiplier based on the AVERAGE depth estimated, for birds scored in the breaks counted.
The judge is trying the best he can to follow the rules. If he is guessing and I don't think he is, it would be an "EDUCATED" guess based on his experience.
Until we get instant replay, this is the best we are going to get. LOL!
Cliff
birdman
829 posts
Jun 25, 2010
7:10 AM
Cliff, I'm not bashing but no matter how you look at it, it's still a best guess scoring system.
Educated or not, it's still a GUESS....unless you find a judge with 16-20 eyes and a computer brain capable of analyzing and averaging the Q x D of every individual bird in the breaks...lol
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2474 posts
Jun 25, 2010
8:54 AM
Absolutely, birdman.
Cliff


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