Joe Valdivia
18 posts
May 16, 2010
9:33 PM
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has anyone ever had any success with breeding rolldowns? about a year and six months ago i bred a roll-down hen to an exceptional cockbird and up until about a month ago the surviving offspring didn't stand out at all. In fact i completely forgot who its parents were because it was nothing special in the air, but about a month ago this bird started spinning faster and deeper (40-50ft) than any of my other birds, and i was shocked when i looked up the pedigree and saw who the parents were. Is this something i should breed from or continue to fly out?
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cv rollers
556 posts
May 16, 2010
10:22 PM
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fly it out see if it holds up,but don't be surprise if it doesn't,good luck with the bird
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Rick Flores
www.coachellavalleyrollers.net
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2410 posts
May 17, 2010
7:26 AM
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Joe
First we need to define our terms:
Roll down.... A bird in good health without the mechanism to control the roll and will roll to the ground every time it spins....regardless of flying height or feed. This type is self-culling most of the time.
I see birds that are mismanaged, under fed, over worked, wormy, or birds that make a few "mistakes", that are sometimes mis-labeled as Roll downs. These birds may be on the edge, but most any family can be made to roll down if not handled properly.
Example " these birds must be FED DOWN (down to beaks and wings) to really perform." This type of family possesses more stability and can handle being pressured (by being starved) to get them to perform. Other families have plenty of roll and one can bring out excellent work rate and depth with only minor feed changes. But if the feed can is not handled right, the latter family can be more easily brought down to the point of less stability, more easily than the former family. That doesn't make either family any better than the other...it depends on the handler and the type of family that he prefers. The better you understand your family of birds, the better handler you become, the fewer roll downs you will create......or breed.
As Rick said Time will tell and these answers will become more evident as you go along.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 7:29 AM
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Scott
3037 posts
May 17, 2010
7:44 AM
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Cliff .. never have I seen a bird or family perform by starving down..a stiff is a stiff regardless .. good pigeons roll no matter what and are a 100 0/0 stable..this starving down bit is nothing more than an old wives tale to justify those that think you need instability to have roll... the reality is a child can breed unstable pigeons to have roll.. stable birds loaded with roll takes much more.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 7:59 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4039 posts
May 17, 2010
8:06 AM
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Hey Scott, when I got back into birds in 1993, breaking birds down was the talk for getting more performance from them. Personally, I never liked this approach. I like feeding birds a healthy and sustainable diet and let the birds genetics do the rest. Saying that, I have found mixing feeds and changing percentages can often result in ampping up the roll without sacrificing stability.
I have found with the Rubys that a sustained 100% wheat ration will tend to cause stability concerns, whereas, a chicken scratch combined with pellets makes for a great maintenance diet and the birds perform well. To get them to increase action, a temporary 50/50 wheat and milo diet seems to do the trick.
These birds are athletes. I cannot understand how removing food is supposed to be a good thing. But maybe for a few, the desire to win supersedes good animal husbandry. IMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Scott
3038 posts
May 17, 2010
8:20 AM
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Yes Tony they are athletes .. and like athletes they need to be conditioned peak optimum .. which by the way cannot be sustained for long... some of the worst adise that I see on these forums are the over use of Wheat or Wheat Milo like it is a 24/7 ration..it will rag out any pigeon in short order.. at least with common feed Wheat.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 8:46 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2411 posts
May 17, 2010
9:15 AM
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Scott
Old wives tale or not, there are flyers who insist that some birds perform better "broken down" as described. Monty was probably best known for prepping this way, and due to his success, he influenced many flyers. I do not believe that many families of birds today require harsh dietary restrictions. The birds need to be "conditioned" but not starved, but many times this is confusing to new flyers.
Feeding up or down will not save an unstable/Rolldown.....conditioning will not save a rolldown. But like I said, poor conditioning can cause a good roller to make mistakes, and too much of a good thing can cause performance problems.
Nothing will take the place of observation and experience, regardless of family.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 9:17 AM
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Scott
3039 posts
May 17, 2010
10:20 AM
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No Cliff.. it doesn't work that way and you mis understood .. no bird can perform properly when it is living off of muscle.. the first to show this is exiting the roll weaker.
Knocking down condition has nothing to do with starving of anything... again just an old wives tale by those that only know instability as a means to the roll.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 10:28 AM
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Alohazona
708 posts
May 17, 2010
10:49 AM
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Joe,
Establish your IDEAL with your birds.If the bird fits in with your game plan,you will know exactly what to do.....Aloha,Todd
PS..it takes a while for birds to mature.
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Joe Valdivia
19 posts
May 17, 2010
11:11 AM
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by rolldown it meant it mother couldnt get higher than a 2 story house without falling back to the ground, she did this regardless to how much she was rested or fed. I also want to note that i recently uped my birds diet from 1tbsp of 12% mix per each bird to 1.5tbsp per bird. They are a bit more active now but still stay up for about 25min
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4329 posts
May 17, 2010
11:18 AM
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Rolling down is a major fault and I would never breed a major fault back into my birds.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2413 posts
May 17, 2010
11:58 AM
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Scott,
Believe me, I understand the concept of conditioning very well. I'm not recommending the practice of starving birds at all, any more than a human athlete would starve himself before a performance. I suggest there is a vast difference between roller men in the definition of "conditioning" when it comes to rollers. We have all heard and read of roller men who believe that if the bird is much more than feathers, beaks and legs, then it is not in "proper condition". In fact, I just heard it again recently. That's why we have a DQ rule....to prevent that tendency during competition.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 11:58 AM
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Bill C
526 posts
May 17, 2010
2:20 PM
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Joe, I would suggest no matter what happens in the near future that you let this bird live out its life in the kit box. I would not breed from a rolldown to get deeper birds either.
A serious problem will occur if you ever inbred or even closely bred the birds and then this fault as Nick said will come back to bite you.
I think many of us would like a foundation pair to start a family from. But they have to be the best of what you have over a few years breeding. Not the first one or two birds, the first few years should be learning what to do and not to do, ( Such as not breeding from a rolldown or bumper) then begin to find the cock and hen or cock and two hens you want to build on.
I am doing three ways, foundation birds/ cousins which might be sort of line breeding and continue to cross pairs that are from the same loft I recieved birds from.
You want to be careful from ending up with half your birds rolling down at 6 months to 2 years on you. What if you wanted to breed cousins or half brother sistser pairs???
Depth is not hard to get once you have two rolling 25+ feet breed them together and they will be sending you some going 40 feet. Good luck Bill C
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 2:31 PM
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Bill C
527 posts
May 17, 2010
2:30 PM
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Cliff, I think you are right on the money on your first post. I agree with you. Not all family of birds are the same.
Scott, I think you have some of the best birds out there but, not every family of birds will react the same as your birds. I definately believe a guy can cause a good team of rollers to bump accidently by mismanagement and under feeding them.
Certain families are weaker and prone to unstable birds much more than others, but if fed properly many of these guys do well with their birds in comp flys. I dont like them much myself as far as that goes.
Your way or no way LOL, is not always the solution LOL! Cliff has some real good advice in his post. Maybe I am a pot calling the kettle black, maybe its my way or no way. LOL?
You said to Cliff, " A stiff is a stiff", but I dont think Cliff is talking stiff rollers bumping or rolling down as much as a good team of seasoned rollers in a kit that doesn't have any stiff birds in it. BIll C
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 2:51 PM
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donnie james
1010 posts
May 17, 2010
6:33 PM
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hay joe,
i brought a classic almond at the national young bird show about 20 years ago and i mated her to a blue check self cock and i raised about 6 youngester and i didn't have a chance to fly them i went out shortly after because i had a lung problem and lung doctor told me to go out and about 6 months after that i got a mask to wear and i got from a friend and i talk to my lung doctor about getting back into and i had a mask and i show her and she said i could get back in the rollers again and every time i cean the lofts i wear my mask and when i go in the loft to feed and water i put my mask on...........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Scott
3040 posts
May 17, 2010
6:34 PM
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Cliff.. I have honestly never heard this before .. it makes no sence to me.
(We have all heard and read of roller men who believe that if the bird is much more than feathers, beaks and legs, then it is not in "proper condition". In fact, I just heard it again recently.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2414 posts
May 18, 2010
5:10 AM
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Bill C
I think we understand each other better and it shows. I appreciate your understanding of what I was trying to communicate.
But back to Joe's question, personally, I would never breed froma rolldown. But anytime we add a bird with questionable stability to the breeder loft, we must fly out all the offspring until we are satisfied that stability is not an issue. Adding unstable birds to your loft is playing with fire.
What most of us are trying to say is just be careful.
Hopefully, Joe will let us know how that bird develops and if it can control its performance.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 18, 2010 5:13 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2415 posts
May 18, 2010
5:26 AM
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Scott
It makes no sense to me either.
Cliff
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Joe Valdivia
20 posts
May 18, 2010
9:57 PM
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ha, i think i rushed into this thread. this morning the kit was coming into land and that particular bird rolled straight into an open trash can (no joke!), it was unharmed, but i took that as a sign.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2416 posts
May 19, 2010
6:03 AM
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Joe
Yep , sounds like you have the answer to your question, alright. No surprise there. But that is the chance we take breeding out of birds with stability issues. The odds are against us breeding out of such birds. Try to do everything possible to increase our odds by starting with the best birds we can find and flying out their young. In this hobby, it often seems more things can go wrong than right.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 19, 2010 6:03 AM
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pigeon pete
538 posts
May 19, 2010
1:41 PM
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To add a different perspective, a bird that is over-active to the point of being unstable will often struggle to maintain the same weight and condition as it's kitmates, who are on the same diet (assuming the rest are more stable).
An inexperienced fancier could look at such a bird and presume that the activity is due to it being underweight wheras---
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JMUrbon
1029 posts
May 19, 2010
9:28 PM
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You know the odds of breeding a great are considerably lower if we dont breed from birds that do it correctly in the first place. The birds that we choose as stock birds should be considered the best you have at the time. Believe me when I say that the odds are greatly against us if we choose birds for stock that posess faults. Not just rolldowns but any fault for that matter. They are culls and should be treated as such. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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James Herring
8 posts
Jul 09, 2010
7:49 AM
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There is no such thing as success with Rolldowns. Those two words can NEVER occupy the same space, anymore than you can be a successful swimmer if you have to be rescued everytime you go in the water. Rolldown once,could be an accident. Rolldown twice. OFF with its head.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 8:01 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
895 posts
Jul 09, 2010
9:08 PM
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Joe V...You now have Ruby birds so you don't need to breed from unstable stock.Work with your Ruby's and build a strong stud of pigeon's from them.JDA
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RodSD
416 posts
Jul 09, 2010
11:12 PM
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I think if the rolldown is a result of genetics, then you can't be successful with them because they might pass that gene(s).
If the rolldown is the result of improper feeding, then obviously there is a chance.
If you feed them properly and handle them well and they are not sick, but they still roll down, then perhaps it is genetics.
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donnie james
1131 posts
Aug 11, 2010
6:27 PM
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hay joe,
back the late '80 i brought a couple of classic almonds at the national young bird show at the trader alley i think about 5 or 10 dollars and i used a roll downs on then and if remember right some the young birds spin a little and the rest didn't roll........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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katyroller
739 posts
Aug 11, 2010
8:43 PM
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I have changed my views on roll downs. I used to give a roll down the benefit of the doubt if it rolled down two or three times thinking that it was due to my poor management. I have since decided a bird is allowed one and only one accident. I no longer blame roll downs on my poor management because I now believe that if the rest of the kit isn't bumping, then the one or two that are bumping must have a fault.
I wean all my young birds together by age, so if a bird isn't getting enough to eat, it will learn to fight for its' share or starve. I am looking to build a family of birds that are durable and are easy to manage. Breeding from weak or problem individuals will not get me the long term results I am looking for.
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fhtfire
2628 posts
Aug 12, 2010
5:03 PM
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Katyroller,
Just remember a roll down is different then a chronic bumper and that is different from a bird that just made a mistake.
A roll down is just that...they roll down no matter what. They do it fast and they do it hard. The wheels fall off the cart so to speak. A true Roll down MAY make it out of the loft but they usually hit the first time they pull the trigger....a true roll down will usually kill itself.
Chronic bumpers are a cull. You are right...others can do so why waste time with a chronic bumper.
Now as far as a bird that bumps...dont cull a bird to soon. I have had a bird bump once or twice and never do it again and that is at any age. To many reasons for a bird to have an issue...Could be fighting a sickness, could be eggy, Extreme Heat, not used to the heat, Moult, feed or just a plain simple mistake.
Some of my best stock birds had bumped once or twice in there flying time to prove themselves. I figure if a bird from hatchling to 1.5-2 years of flying bumps twice out of all those fly's could be just a blurp on the radar. So just because a bird bumps does not mean it is a cull.
Young birds can just be a stage...old bird could just be having and issue....If an old bird bumps I will rest it up..feed it up....and low and behold the bird never does it again....it is one of those fine lines as a fancier you have to decide if it is an accident or a bird losing control. Most birds that are losing control...continue to go downhill until they are to scared to fly, cull themselves or stay away from the kit....anyway...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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katyroller
740 posts
Aug 12, 2010
9:14 PM
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Paul,
I understand what you are saying about bumpers and I have also witnessed some of the same results. What I am starting to look at is wheter or not birds that bump are worth introducing into the breeding program, even if they are good performers. I am beginning to believe that if the majority of the team is not bumping and are performing well, then the birds that are bumping might be deficient in some way and should not make it to the breeding loft. I understand it sounds like a hard a$$ approach but I'm starting to think maybe the old saying "survival of the fittest" might have some real value in my breeding program.
Tracey
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fhtfire
2629 posts
Aug 13, 2010
7:40 AM
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Katy,
Ok...I agree...but are you talking about a bird that never bumped at all in it life or a bird that bumps quite often.
Like I said...numerous birds in my stock loft had bumped before...but in the air these birds were by far the best birds. Would I leave out the best birds because they got a little excited when they were in the best shape...they may have been sick...injured....who knows.
I am not saying to breed from chronic bumpers..NO WAY....but we do have to remember that these are animals and no animal is perfect. The best will bump and the best wont bump.
Its easier to explain in person. If you have a bird that is just a rocket in every way and has never bumped that is fine...but if you have a bird that is 2 years old..been in every team....and at the 1.5 year mark is bumped twice then never again...not a blurp.....would you breed from the bird that bumped twice 3-5 times out of 250 flies.
As long as you dont let your NO BUMP rule get in your head to deep and you pass on a real good bird becuase of a couple bumps.
Out of the stock birds that I have...believe it or not both of my foundation cocks bumped....I have offspring in my loft out of those birds that are stock and half never bumped and half once or twice and the best birds producing are the ones that bumped a couple times...usually it seemed to me they were just mistakes...or it was real hot and they were spent..I dont know...but after they did it they never did it again in 6-8 months of flying....
Just something to think about...it is good to be real tough..I am....but you have the fine line and the fact that these are animals and they will make mistakes....shit I am 38 years old and I have tripped and fell to many times to remember.....and I have been walking for 38 years..look at any sport the best will mess up...gymnist on a balance beam ranked 1 in the world...fell....Word Class Sprinters have come up lame...and fell during the race...the difference is humans can talk...I pulled a Hammy....I did not feel good today and lost my concentration......if the bird that bumped could talk...it may say...sorry boss....I was not feeling good.....my wing hurt...or man I thought I was further away from the loft when I hit....
I hope you are getting my point. As long as you dont let the hard rule on bumping cloud your vision.
The best thing is this...you can prove out a bird for one trait in a season...if a bird bumps once or twice and you breed from this bird and you get 8 rounds and none bump then you are AOK...
Usually your best birds are the most active and they may be rolling....20 times a flight more then the next bird.....so if they bump once or twice in a carreer they may have pulled the trigger 20-50% more times that is 20-50% more times to have and oops.
A smart bird with heart will make a couple mistakes and if they correct that mistake and never do it again...that is a smart bird...or whatever was bothering it had passed.
HOpe I made sense.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2010 7:43 AM
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J_Star
2309 posts
Aug 13, 2010
7:56 AM
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I can sum it in one short sentence..."Like breeds like" and another sentence is "The apples don’t fall far from the tree."
I found out from experience that once a bird establishes a habit, whether rolling down, or leaving the kit or coming down early and bring the kit with it...is not going to change. You could give it all the rest and the feed you want and still be crap. The sooner you eliminate those birds out of your team the sooner your team will advance.
Why would anybody want to breed from a roll down when good birds are in abundance and very easy to have from friends, auctions, swap meets..etc.
Jay Alnimer
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4161 posts
Aug 13, 2010
8:05 AM
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Paul, I think you make a good point, a bird that has the juice flown and has flown 250 times like you indicate and then bumps 5 times, has a bump rate of 2% over 250 flying sessions. When you consider the number of times he rolls per fly, lets say 10 times...(low, I know), that would be 250 flys X 10 breaks = 2500. That is a very low .2% of the total rolls that the bird bumped. That is 1/5 of 1%. A small percentage indeed.
That number seems perfectly reasonable to me. Now this is probably worth mentioning, should such a bird hit an object and was rolling with proper velocity, the bird either culls itself or comes away with an injury that most likely will put it out of commission for a while. Anything less is not rolling with proper velocity.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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katyroller
741 posts
Aug 13, 2010
8:33 AM
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Paul,
Thanks for the advice my friend. I hear what you are saying and will keep it in mind when making the decision wheter to cull or not. Fortunately, I haven't had a roll down or bouncer out of the family I am working with. A couple close calls but no accidents yet.
Tracey
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fhtfire
2630 posts
Aug 13, 2010
5:20 PM
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Katy its just like motocross racing....it not if your going to crash...its when you are going to crash...you will get a roll down sooner or later.
I get about 1-3 a year...some years none....chronic bumpers..sometimes....mistakes sometimes.....mistakes that are fatal....3-4 a year.....I know they are mistakes because before the birds hit they are damn near pulled out of the roll.
Anyway....keep up the good work...
Tony....you are right the retards usually cull themseleves.....or get hurt...I lost two really good rollers last year to broken wings...one collided with another bird in the air...and the other..made a mistake and clipped the loft.
Jay...so right...apple does not fall far from the tree.....as long as it is a genetic defect...or a bird that plain does not have it....but a mistake is just that....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
1072 posts
Aug 14, 2010
4:23 PM
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There is a huge difference between a bumper and a rolldown. those that dont know the difference never will. A rolldown will ( Like Paul stated) do it every time out and usually cull themselvs. They are more than likely afraid to fly after the first or second time coming down. A cronic bumper will be the bird that always seems to hit or come close to hitting as the birds circle the loft to land. Anything else is considered an accident unless repeated. JMHO however. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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