Pinwheel
217 posts
Apr 22, 2010
2:09 PM
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This may seem obvious to most and a no brainer.But it has just occured to me that feeding by volume may be a poor way to feed your animals when switching from seed to pellet. I know people that have used pellet, notice their birds are always hungry!!!! Im going to assume that the feeding regime stayed the same?? Perhaps the same 2 tablespoons per bird, or a cup for every 10 birds. Although my revelation came from comparing the weight of rice to pellets, I feel rice is a good substitute for weight of pigeon seed. 2 cups of pellets is equivalent by weight to 1 cup or rice/grain. So maybe the reason my birds are hungry, is because they are indeed, HUNGRY!??? . Just wondered why when I increased the feed it wasnt doing much. I need to nearly double the feed by weight????? If you think I am way out in left field, please let me know. Maybe I am off???
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1 cup rice ---- 190 grams
1 cup pellets --- 100 grams
So weight almost proportionally correlates with volume. If I double weight, I am also doubling volume.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 5:14 PM
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Pinwheel
219 posts
Apr 22, 2010
4:26 PM
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I assume we should know calorie content of each grain and pellet. But please let me know if i'm way off or not thinking right
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Pogohawk
116 posts
Apr 22, 2010
5:36 PM
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I've been curious about the same thing for a while now and I tend to feed a little more if I am using pellets, or seed pellet mixture.
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RodSD
390 posts
Apr 22, 2010
7:58 PM
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I noticed the same thing! They always looked hungry. It seemed that they are not getting satisfied, yet baby shows good, healthy ones.
My guess is that pellets are easily digested and get "used" right away so they end up looking hungry. If it were seeds and because those are hard and take time to digest perhaps the birds think they are still full. Who knows really the answers. The government had done research already whether the posted protein, fat, etc. on the label is true and they found out that indeed what was on the label is correct so we are not short labeled or getting cheated.
I, too, ended up feeding more so you are not way out of field.
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 7:59 PM
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Pinwheel
220 posts
Apr 22, 2010
8:22 PM
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If you guys could oblige and maybe weigh out one cup of your grain and post how much it weights along with the guaranteed analysis that would be great! I could take that and compare and see if by weight, is feeding pellets and seed the same? or are pellets designed to to stack up to with seed even though it weights much less per volume(cup).
If you could get these included(ash might not be)or tell me the exact grain mixture.
Protein
Fat
Fiber
Ash(might not)
Moisture
Carbohydrate(probably is not)
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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RodSD
394 posts
Apr 22, 2010
8:44 PM
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I think we hit the right spot. It is either weight by volume or weight by weight which are different. The problem it seems is that we are using weight by volume or where we use cup measurement for example. Now if we use a weighing machine, then that would be weight by weight.
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Pinwheel
221 posts
Apr 22, 2010
9:02 PM
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yes, so when we feed weight by weight, you are going to be going through that bag of pellets a whole lot quicker! dump 200grams of wheat on the loft ground, then dump 200 grams of pellets on the ground next to them, and youll find they will be swimming in the pellets.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 9:07 PM
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Pinwheel
222 posts
Apr 22, 2010
9:05 PM
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Typical hard white wheat is about 96 calories per 28 grams. The nutriblend gold is 92 calories per 28 grams. So for comparison they are very close. and when you put them on a scale, you should find that the pellets are going to be taking up a lot more volume then the seed will be. SO when you feed by volume alone, and you do so with pellets with the mindset of grain, you will be underfeeding your birds a lot.
IN order to get the same amount of energy and nutrients in your birds feeding pellet, you need to feed twice as much in regards to volume. Which I think is how most people do it, grab a cup and shovel out some feed. Just need to do a lot more with pellet. Which is why if you dont free feed, they are most likely hunting you down. So I think pellet is a fine feed for flying birds just have to know how to use it, how much and how often. My birds flew 50 mins today and all I feed is pellet. It was hard to land them... tree had some to do with it i will admit.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 9:14 PM
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bman
758 posts
Apr 23, 2010
4:54 AM
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Pinwheel, you are right on the money. I use both and to get the same results you need to feed 1 1/2 - 2 cups pellets vs. one cup of grain. I ahve used both extensively on both Homers & rollers.By the way I use Purina pellets.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Sound Rollers
309 posts
Apr 24, 2010
5:09 AM
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I think the pellets probably clear the crop quicker then seed, so it would make sense they would be hungrier sooner. The pellets are water soluble.
Question; if your feeding pellets do you feed grit?
John
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Pinwheel
226 posts
Apr 24, 2010
6:44 AM
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But is the satiety coming from the crop being full? or the stomachs being full? OR both? The crop is a dilation of the esophagus used for storage, relatively thin with some muscularity. The main organ is the gizzard that controls the rate of emptying of the crop I believe. From what I learned from poultry nutritionist and zoological vets is that grit is not necessary for the grinding action with pellets. But THey still eat it if I put it in there for them.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Pinwheel
227 posts
Apr 24, 2010
6:46 AM
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So I started feeding double of what I have been feeding, and I dont seem to be having birds trying to break through the gate to get to me for food. Its only been the first day. But Ill let you know how it work in days to come
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Sound Rollers
310 posts
Apr 24, 2010
9:31 AM
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I think its a matter of how fast the gizzard chews the food, the seed being a longer process, lasting through the the day. Do the long distance flier folks feed pellet or seed? Do the homers fly with their crops full?
John
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Pinwheel
228 posts
Apr 24, 2010
11:48 AM
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Yes I say you are probably right about that. Once the gizzard is done chewing, then more material can move in. I think they probably feed both. some may feed seed, and some pellets, some both. Maybe some racer folks can answer if they race on full crops or not.
I do know as general knowledge that once exercise commences, GI motility shuts down and you cease digesting materials. SO i would suppose a full crop would only act as extra weight and take away from aerodynamics and such.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Apr 24, 2010 11:50 AM
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RodSD
399 posts
Apr 25, 2010
3:14 AM
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I love you guys for sharing your knowledge and experiences!
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Sound Rollers
312 posts
Apr 25, 2010
9:47 AM
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I'd like to add, those who live in cold climates with long cold nights should feed seed vs. pellets the digestion action of the gizzard produces heat, hence you want the gizzard working until the next feeding. That's why you feed more in the winter. The Crop soften the food before it reaches the gizzard, popcorn is considered soft material, so think about how fast a pellet would break down. I'll never feed pellets to my birds, the pellets are too soft.
This is what I feed:
Purgrain Breeder/Conditioner 16% NO CORN
Crude Protein (min) 17.0% Crude Fat (min)4.5% Crude Fiber (max) 9.0%%
A super formulated ration without corn, designed for growing young birds or conditioning older ones.
Contains: Canada Peas, Red Milo, White Kafir, Maple Peas, Oat Groats, Austrian Peas, Whole Wheat, Safflower Seed, White Millet, Red Millet, Canary Seed, Vetch, Buckwheat, Rice.
John
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Pinwheel
229 posts
Apr 25, 2010
11:11 AM
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I never thought about how much the gizzard contributes to heat production, but I think that raises a good point. I also know the importance of carbohydrate breakdown yields heat, which in winter time, you increase carbohydrate usually by giving corn, to keep your birds warm. Which is why after eating a high carbohydrate meal, maybe after thanksgiving, or something, you feel warmer or warm in general. Depending on how much wine you had too. lol
But the cost of the gizzard working also uses energy, which the bird also has to get from food. On pellets, the gizzard might not be working as vigorously but might not be using up energy that can go towards other uses. But how much of what is really happening, I dont know.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Windjammer Loft
1102 posts
Apr 26, 2010
10:15 AM
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The only reason that I fed pellets was because of the "convience" factor. Much easier to have 1 container of feed instead of 3 separate ones. Plus with the pellets everything is combined into a single piece, not individual grains. Those causing less picky eaters. And I know that each bird is getting the same amount of nutricianal value.
The weight difference will not be the same. Pellets are heavier by volume.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Sound Rollers
324 posts
Apr 29, 2010
1:00 PM
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Ok, I know I said I would never feed pellets, OPEN MOUTH INCERT FOOT, with further research I righted my wrong. I will be feeding these pellets as a supplement to the seeds:
Purgrain Advantage Pigeon Pellets
"Without question, the most modern, nutritious pigeon food on the market today.
Loaded with vitamins, minerals, trace minerals and many other nutrients designed to provide your birds with optimum nutrition.
Advantage contains high levels of methionine, an essential amino acid necessary for proper feathering. We have added "Bio Moss " to help improve the intestinal integrity of your birds. Soybean oil and roasted soybeans are also included in the formulation to provide super concentrated sources of slow burning energy. Other nutritious additions to this quality product include whole whey (a highly digestible protein source), brewer's yeast (a high quality protein that's loaded with B vitamins), sulfated trace minerals (trace minerals that are sulfated, and therefore easier to digest), and yucca (to reduce stool odor in your loft)".
John
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 1:16 PM
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155
1202 posts
Apr 29, 2010
2:24 PM
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Hello guys,
I wanted to share a little story about feeding my kit birds pellets well before this pellet incident I was doing my normal diet routein with my birds. I noticed my birds were skying up and the roll wasnt looking so tight so I had to leave to cali for five days so I told my dad to feed all my birds pellets including the kit birds to make it easy for him. So for those five past day my birds were going all the pellets they wanted so when i got back home a buddy of mine by the name of Chris (a witness) seen that my birds still had pellets in there trays when i got home so i decided to kick the birds out for him and believe it or not my birds did the best work that i'd ever seen them do in a long time with pellets. They flew at a nice height, they flew like butterflys nice and slow and the roll was just true quality and ever sense then ive been feeding my birds once a week all the pellets they want but only once a week and then i keep the same diet ration but ever sense then ive been seeing the best out of them this is just something i thought i would share with all of you.
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~ Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft ~
Compton ca ,Mesa Az
.Going all Higgins this Year.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 4:47 AM
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Pinwheel
234 posts
Apr 29, 2010
3:02 PM
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I like that. Very nice story. So how did you get to feed them once a week all they want after seeing an effect of 5 straight days of all you can eat.
I feed all they want(in 15 mins) once a day. I have varied fly times and height coming out of my 5-6 months, but the 3 months fly much better and at a good height, but only some are just getting to flipping.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Pinwheel
235 posts
Apr 29, 2010
3:06 PM
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John. No worries my friend. I looked up that pellet. Looks interesting. I do like the higher fat content in the one food. We will have to work some calculations to see if it does come higher or about the same as others or not. I read one article where its suggested from research on racing pigeons that they are able to use fat as an energy source better then carbohydrate which got my wheels turning.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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155
1203 posts
Apr 29, 2010
3:43 PM
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pinwheel
yes, so now i do it ones a week only and it working out just fine (old birds) now my young birds i do give them a hand of pellet ever 2 day or so and they also do good on it i guess the family of birds that i working with do better with some good feed and i dont have to kill them on the feed to make them roll
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~ Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft ~
Compton ca ,Mesa Az
.Going all Higgins this Year.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 8:00 PM
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Pinwheel
236 posts
Apr 29, 2010
4:55 PM
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Well thats good dude. Can you clarify by killing them on food to make them roll. Do you mean cutting back feed?
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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155
1204 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:01 PM
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yes sr.. that what i mean...
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~ Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft ~
Compton ca ,Mesa Az
.Going all Higgins this Year.
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