Bluesman
9 posts
Feb 28, 2004
9:01 AM
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What do you competition fellows call a tight kit?Also loose kit? Approx.distance across kit.What distance do you call a bird an out bird? Thanks, David Strait
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2010 10:01 AM
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 28, 2004
1:24 PM
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Dave thats a hard one without standing under a team of birds,didnt I see that you lived in PA. I would advise that you hook up with some ther guys,if you live in PA maybe check in with Scotty Rice.
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Bluesman
10 posts
Feb 29, 2004
3:47 AM
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What I am asking is a tight kit 10 feet across,30 feet across etc.And at what distance would a judge call your bird an out bird from your kit.Thanks,David
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Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 29, 2004
7:25 AM
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Dave if they are together then they are a kit,sometimes you'll have a bird that will fly just out of the kit,I don't know say 20 ft or more and it's considered out,a stiff breeze or in wind my kit seems spread a little more exspecially heading into it,keep in mind that breaks are stimulated by the kit and if the kit is right then the tighter the kit the bigger the breaks,kitting isnt just a competition thing Dave,kitting is part of the package,any bird that doesnt kit no matter how it rolls is nothing short of a cull,but you must also keep in mind that there are things that young birds go through coming into the roll and must be given an oppertunity to get a handle on it,were talking maybe a few weeks here though tops,old Birds may give you fits during the moult,but the better birds wont give you problems either coming into the roll or during the moult,the birds that wont kit day an day out are weak mentally and are nothing short of culls,hey did you get those birds moved over ?
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Bluesman
11 posts
Feb 29, 2004
8:42 AM
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Thanks.Just trying to get a handle on what the competition is like.My hat is off to anyone who competes.I know how much work I do just flying for my pleasure and anyone who happens to stop by and watch and I can,t imagine what all you fellows do to get ready for a fly.I have started to be a little more forgiving on young birds if they are trying.You can pretty much tell if a bird is going to be a problem.No sense wasting good feed.I Have moved the other birds but not completly successful.There is 4 that just won,t accept the other kitbox.They kit good together when flying but as soon as they land they go right back to old kitbox.They will get the message sooner or later.They can,t be getting much feed by the time I take them back over.My training cage is in use with a young kit.I think that would work good.Never a boring day with rollers.What part of Pa. does Scotty Rice live? David Strait
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4175 posts
Aug 17, 2010
10:02 AM
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PUBLISHER: I think this is a good question, especially for the newer guys So I wanted to bump it up from 2004 and get a few more responses. I would like to drill down a bit more though: Is tight kitting a characteristic of certain families or can it be influenced by management, feed or water supplements? What causes loose kitting? Thanks
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1975 posts
Aug 17, 2010
10:42 AM
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Tony, Kitting is a breed for trait just as the roll. I think kitting is influenced by several factors, including the molt, wind, overfeeding seems to loosen my kit and the biggest sin, not flying enough. This is toward young birds, not established well trained veterans. Sporadic flying affects kitting as much as any thing possibly could. For a team to perform well, they must be flown consistently. Over watering can also affect the kit, try drinking a large amount of water and then go for a fast run, not pretty. :)
As to kit size, I like my birds to fly between 250' to 300', just my preference. I also like to be able to hold my arm out and sight through my thumb and not see the kit. My thumb should cover a 21 to 24 bird kit, just before the break of course. Any bird that does not fly within this parameter and is over one year old and through the molt is potpie.
Take care my friends
Thom
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wishiwon2
351 posts
Aug 17, 2010
4:48 PM
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I am sure that kitting is a heritable trait. It is something that must be conciously selected for in order to improve the kitting ability of a line or family. There are some bloodlines that are naturally more inclined to kit tight than others.
Kitting can also be influenced through management. i agree with Thomin that flight frequency is a big influence in how well or not birds kit. Too much time sitting around without flying loosens a kit up so they're not as tight. I also see a softening in the tightness of my kits as I pull them down in condition. Overfed and overflown have the opposite effect.
Scott pointed out that rollers must kit first. Before any performance trait can be considered, a bird must meet the prerequisite of flying together in a kit. I believe it can go even further in that selection can be made for birds that not only fly together as a kit but choose to perform in concert together too. Outflying is an inexcusable fault that can be readily passed on. I believe tight kitting can be too. Beware of those birds continually rolling off from the back of the kit, initiating a roll each time they get themselves caught back up with the kit. Even though they continue to try and for short periods of time actually do fly as part of the kit, they are of lesser value than birds that perform and return directly to the kit and rejoin without being immediately stimulated to roll again. Birds that roll regularly off from the backof the kit generally have some stability issues and will not contribute to flying or breeding tight kitting rollers.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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J_Star
2313 posts
Aug 18, 2010
6:26 AM
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Even with tight kitting families, we still breed some that want to fly solo...which we cull. It is a character of the bird itself...not the blood line or the strain. There are many reason why the birds want to fly solo which, on occassions, could be triggerd by poor management. However, those birds will correct their behavior if management of the birds changes in a positive way. In most cases if waited too long to to get the bird to change behavior, the bird will cause more serious damage to the kit harmony by creating more unkitters like him.
Jay
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JC
29 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:22 PM
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I was thinking of this today. I have a breeding pair that has produced 3 babies from different hatchings. All are under a year. All roll better than my other birds. All roll ( I think) excessive. They hardly get to the kit before they roll again. They don't always roll deep. usually 3-10ft. The bad points. They only kit when flying low. Sometimes land early, sometimes fly off and come back later. As I said they roll better than most of my other birds. I don't know if the bad trait is from the cock or hen because I have never flown either. I was given the cock and was told that he rolled deep. The hen was of "good type." I know my management needs improvement but with my work it's hard to fly more than twice a week. Should I split up the breeders to other .mates. Should I get rid of these young birds. I only have two left, one disappeared. Any suggestions
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gotspin7
2699 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:34 AM
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Good Morning JC,
I would remove all 3 birds from the kit, 3-10 feet should not keep them from not kitting. Now if they were dropping 30-50 feet that would be more understandable at any rate they need to be removed. I would recommend you change your mating for next year and keep an eye on their new kids next year, you might then get a better idea of who is producing the problem.
I hope it gets better for you, good luck!
Sal
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Sal Ortiz
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old guy
64 posts
Aug 19, 2010
12:15 PM
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Kitting is a naturally selected defense against bop's. No hawk wants to risk injury by diving into a kit of birds at high speed, so they usually buzz the kit trying to shake a bird loose and then stoop on or chase it. Sandpipers and most shore birds fly in tight kits, I once saw a peregrine fly up and down a beach in Florida. The feeding sandpipers would burst into the air on his approach and pull together into the tightest kits you have ever seen. Finally a bird panicked and left a kit; he lasted about 5 seconds. All pigeons including rollers instinctively kit. Unfortunately rollers are pressured by opposing forces, the instinct to kit and the fear of the strange behavior we have bred into them. The good ones can overcome their fear and become sound rollers and kit birds and the unstable birds can't. I think if you cull the unstable rollers you solve kitting problems. Wayne
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lew3015
127 posts
Aug 20, 2010
5:38 AM
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Is it possible for birds to kit so tight that they will not roll and perform when kitting tight, or do they just need more time flying togeather?
I have 3 , 25 bird kits, a mixture of familys, all young birds, ruby's, mees, hardesty and my own family, all flying togeather, very tighly, so tight they bump each other while their flying, but with little performance going on except for the birds on the edges, than when flown in 4 bird groups they will roll and perform fairly good.
What's the solution?
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Lew
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michael salus
258 posts
Aug 20, 2010
6:26 AM
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Lew, I think you found the solution yourself.... fly smaller kits for awhile, until they are doing what you want and then add a few birds at a time until they fly correctly...This may take a couple of weeks, but it will be worth it..... Good Luck.
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MJ "Peace"
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michael salus
259 posts
Aug 20, 2010
6:45 AM
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One more thing.. I bet they don't get very high, do they? Once they get some height they should slow everything down and start to perform.
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MJ "Peace"
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lew3015
128 posts
Aug 22, 2010
3:10 PM
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Thanks Mj, As a matter of fact they fly at all levels, when frist let out they circle the loft at tree top high a few times,usually flying quite fast. than they will gradually climb up in the sky going quite high, sometimes on a clear day, until they are just little specks for 1/2 hour or so, than they gradually start down until they are about tree top high again, atill flying togeather tightly than they will go up again but not as high, than continue at differant levels, going up and down, they generally fly an hour to an hour and and a half depending how the weather is.
How do I get them to slow down? without losing the tight kitting.
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Lew
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2010 3:14 PM
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J_Star
2314 posts
Aug 24, 2010
4:59 AM
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Lew, that is feed causing this behavior. Cut down on your wheat and milo and substitue with peas and some saflower. Cut down the feed to do 45 min. Beleive it or not, I feed only one measuring cup for a kit of 20 birds.
JC, the birds are too young to yank them out. They will correct after they the hang of the roll.
Jay Alnimer
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gentle johnnie
198 posts
Aug 24, 2010
5:44 PM
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The last two times the #1 kit has flown kiting has been poor- my best young hen has gone lite 2 others setting on wires-those 2 now in #2 kit best hen getting rest and extra food- any suggestions what else to give her. They also will not get over 150 feet high and most of time 100 or less tryed giving extra food in evening but no help. Any suggestions Guys- Club Fly in less than a month then Fall Fly. GOD BLESS!!!
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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J_Star
2318 posts
Aug 25, 2010
4:36 AM
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Just keep flying the crap out of them. Use a flag or a towel to keep flagging them when they try to land. Up the feed slowly until you find a median. Give them peas daily and red grit every other day.
Jay Alnimer
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wishiwon2
353 posts
Aug 25, 2010
10:25 PM
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Johnnie, This is a difficult time of yr to fly well in. Moult, maturity, hot-dry weather all contribute to abnormal flights.
Try feeding some extra milo and or millet to get them to lift higher. I avoid extra peas and/or barely. With both those my birds choose to fly lower. Be careful with the millet, use it sparingly and increase in small amounts, it can lead to an overfly easily.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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gentle johnnie
200 posts
Aug 27, 2010
6:42 PM
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Thanks for suggestions Jon & Jay the very next time out they flew great and again to day no problems pull little white hen going to rest for a few days and then try again add an o8 hen from Robert Contreras from Roswell NM she is out of Ken Easley birds was in breeder loft she is a 30' very frequent once every min. or so hope she will fit into the kit. THANKS Guys GOD BLESS!!!
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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