Newbie 08
96 posts
Jan 21, 2009
2:28 PM
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----------What are fireball rollers? I would think they are very fast spinners if I just base this off the name? Are they that much different from Birmingham rollers far as the roll is concern or is it a color thing?? I know everyone has their preference. If someone can break this down for me and give me imput far as the differnce between the two breeds or if there is much difference it would be much appreciated. I'm still learning.
~~~~~~butch
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2009 2:29 PM
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-mannyfresh- spins
102 posts
Jan 21, 2009
4:19 PM
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well der similar to rollers but are much more high flying and I've heard they don't kit as good as birms..but yea ask fireballer916..
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-mannyfresh- spins
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noojin
17 posts
Jan 21, 2009
4:24 PM
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scroll all the way down & click on Fireball Forum..
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Fire_Baller_916
397 posts
Jan 21, 2009
6:06 PM
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www.fireballrollers.com There you go...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
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cv rollers
238 posts
Jan 21, 2009
7:52 PM
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newbie funny thing i asked this b-4 they r Birminghams they r very deep ,some 100ftrs with control,they are 4 the back yard flyer not 4 comp.they also fly for a long time ...this is what i learned.. fire ball people want to keep them pure to keep the bloodline going..correct me if i am wrong..
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Fire_Baller_916
399 posts
Jan 21, 2009
8:14 PM
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Fireball Rollers AKA Whittingham Rollers aren't actually Birmingham Rollers...I'll give you the definition of a Fireball Roller and compare it to a BR to see if there standards are the same...Fireballs are high flyers, will fly for several hours, come in all color and marking...They are known for there ability to roll deep, 30-100 feet plus...Some will go beyound the 300 feet mark...FBs are for backyard flying and werent breed for competition...FBs are good kitter but not as tight as BRs...The original Fireballs were homers size...Now days you'll get some medieum to small size...Whittinghams were imported here before Pensom imported his birds here...Now what do you think?
P.S. a lot of people like to consider them rolldown but due to poor management ofcourse you'll get rolldown...I bred 1 out of 30 young that rolldown on me but I put the blame on me due to not feeding it up and flying him during his first molt...They tend to get too hot during there first molt...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2009 8:23 PM
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pigeon pete
61 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:20 AM
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Fireballer,
The Fireballs come from England the home of the Birmingam roller. Your definition of a Fireball is closer to the original definition of the Birmingham roller than many so called Birmingham Rollers of today.
The BR was not bred for kitting and breaks, that is a modern development.
The BR WAS prized for its high flying abilites, it's competition that has removed that part from the description. When I joined the All England club in the eighties and until just a few years ago the club statement included the words, (the AERC) 'will at all times encourage high flying and deep rolling'.
The high flying part was only removed around 5 years ago.
Regards, Pete.
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pigeon pete
62 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:23 AM
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Fireballer,
P.S If I remember right the Whittinghams came from Rowley Regis whic IS in the Birmingham area, and they would have been just another roller breeder, not breeders of another breed if you see what I mean.
Pete
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Windjammer Loft
673 posts
Jan 22, 2009
4:44 AM
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Newbie 08...for future references, try using the
"SearchSite" bar in the upper left hand cornor of this page. It's loaded with many newbie questions and answers. Just a hint....
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 4:47 AM
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Fire_Baller_916
400 posts
Jan 22, 2009
5:05 AM
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Pigeon pete, if so do you consider all performance type such as oriental, parlor, deneks, and etc as BR breed? English rollers are from England and they dont even call them BRs...Actually rollers were from the black county and BR is just the name of a town...I wouldnt call FBs BR...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 5:14 AM
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pigeon pete
63 posts
Jan 22, 2009
12:58 PM
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Hi Chai,
No, obviously I don't consider all performance types as Birmingham rollers . there are many types of rollers around the world, but they are not all BR's.
Birmingham is a large conurbation and the 'Black Country' is the extended west side of Birmingham.
Going out towards the Black country from the centre of Birmingham we go through towns such as Harbourne, (Pensoms Home town), 4miles further west is Rowley Regis (Whittinghams home), Yes the Whittinghams and the Pensoms were near neghbours.
From Birmingham to the very outskirts of the Black country is only around 10 miles so non of these 'centres of origin' were seperate from any other. The birds have always spread of course and the fist Whittingham exports were quite likely to be a fair representation of birds to be found around 'Brum' and the B Country at that time.
The original imports may or may not have been crossed with the old american rollers which I am told were deep, and long time flyers.
I don't know where you live or where you get your information but I can asure you that we do call our Birds Birmingham rollers, and I would advise you to go on google earth or suchlike and then tell me that Birminhgam is just a town. It is the second largest city in England. When WH Pensom was asked about whittingham he is reported to have said "Who"?
It is unlikely that he didn't know of a family of roller breeders just 4 miles down the road, especially as he travelled all over the area to seek out good birds. It seems more likely that there was some animosity or rivalry between them? I read somwhere that they were called fireballs to hide the Whittingham
name from Pensom. You are right in the fact that Fireballs are not called BR's but that is their origins just as is the case for Pensom Rollers.
Pete
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speedball
102 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:22 PM
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pensom imported a red spangle cock to the usa, which was the founder of the fireball strain. the birds in question are birmingham rollers and the strain is called fireball.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 1:23 PM
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Newbie 08
102 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:28 PM
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Did i start a debate that has gone down before Paul? Thanks for the info hope I didn't open up a can of worms
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~~~~~~butch
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Scott
1492 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:42 PM
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Speedball, Pensom imports hard nothing to do with the FireBalls, the fireballs are known for heat,depth and slop, there is a reason they have all but died out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 1:45 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
151 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:49 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I believe the true rollers originated in India and gained the fame and name Birmingham in England...Correct me if I am wrong...
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Leo
Member
79 posts
Jan 22, 2009
2:54 PM
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OK,,Pete you are wrong ...Speedball...you are wrong...IF you want the real answers, COME TO THE FIREBALL SITE! we are more than willing to give you the REAL information you need.WE are a site that knows the history of Fireballs ,to be honest, you guys look like 'amatures' with all those stories...I was a friend of JIM GRAHAMS,&DOC NORDLAND...I had FBs in 1956,...THERE is a WORLD of information we are willing to give you for FREE join in,......LEO
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steve-moua
11 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:15 PM
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WOW! Is this Debate Class?
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PREP Lofts
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Newbie 08
109 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:24 PM
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oops did I do this LOL
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~~~~~~butch
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Scott
1494 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:25 PM
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Yea you did Butch LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
64 posts
Jan 22, 2009
3:53 PM
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Leo mate, you may need to be a bit more specific than just saying you are are wrong. Are you saying that Birmingham isn't a city, or we B'Roller breeders don't call them B'Rollers?.
It Birmingham was a city last time I was there which was a few weeks ago.
In fact my daughter is visiting there this week,
Oh my god where is she!! In fact if I recall right Speedball actually lives in Birmingham.
Hey speedball can you believe these guys, your city has been demoted to a town, your birds are not Birmingham rollers, and Birmingham Rollers didn't come from the place you live in after all.
Leo, Simply Saying you are wrong doesn't make it so, any more than posting stuff on a website makes it right. I'll take a look at your website sometime.Oh no I can't, you were so busy calling us wrong and amature that you forgot to post the web address. In fact apart from name calling you didn't say antything.
Pete
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Fire_Baller_916
401 posts
Jan 22, 2009
4:02 PM
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"pensom imported a red spangle cock to the usa, which was the founder of the fireball strain. the birds in question are birmingham rollers and the strain is called fireball" ...For your understanding "Speedball" McAree imported generation of Whittinghams before Pensom imported his birds here...I wouldnt say that it was Pensom that founded the strain Fireballs...Do some research...Pete, if you know your history so much where did you get your info's from?
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
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Leo
Member
80 posts
Jan 22, 2009
4:25 PM
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Sorry Pete, I meant this offer in the kindest way,I simply wanted to see the correct Information was at your disposal,and you would be able to hold an inteligent conversation on the subject...sorry the word WRONG offended you.!...you are INCORRECT in your post..I hope thats better... I certanly APOLOGIZE if you or speed are offended...I know you are going to be a real Pigeon Man....LEO...p.s.dont bother stopping by
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pigeon pete
65 posts
Jan 22, 2009
4:48 PM
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Hi Guys,
Maybe you fireball guys should get togethet and decide on a 'correct History' of the Fire balls.
I just googled Fireball rollers and found the circus loft site which has a History of the Fireball strain which more or less is what I thought it was because I've read similar articles before. Mc Aree a canadian, imported Birmingham Rollers from Whittingham of England. Mc Aree's pupil Graham got some of them.
He was going to found a new strain called fireball, after a cock he had called fireball. When he moved house to Ontario, Fireball got out and he lost him.
He then bred from fireballs son, to found the 'new ' strain. There is also the story of Mc Aree and Graham pooling all their rollers into one stud and they then had 300 rollers. Where the story on this site gets a bit muddy is when they talk about the Whittinghams being crossed into the other strains of American rollers and other breeds.For example the North American High Flying Roller which was originaly bred from an oriental roller and a BR rolldown. Then many other performing breeds were crossed into them.
It also says that most were crossed eventualy into Whittinghams.
To form a bird half way between the old NAHFR deeper rollers and the Birminghams, they then crossed the NAHFR with Birminghams. What is not made clear is wether the Fireballs were involved in all this crossing or if they were kept more or less the same blood of the original imports. Maybe you can shed more light on that.
I can see little deviation in this story from what I said that would make so react as you did. Ok I may have got the wrong Suburb of Birmingham. Acording to Mc Aree. He Says Wolverhampton is where Whittingham lived, which is a little further away from Brum and to the North of the Black country (he calls it a suburb of birmingham).
I also found Chai's website and forum.
Nice pigeon photos by the way. Many of them are very similar in type to my Birminghams.
Who said I know my history?, certainly not me.
All the info I have on the Whitts and fireballs is stored in my head, which is not always the safest place to keep stuff. It is what I have read over the years on sites like this, and Earls list, and magazines, all of them American in origin.
So know you now know where I get my info from :)
If there are other sites with alternative histories please post the URL so I can check them out.
Pete.
P.S May be of interest, I suspect not, but a friend of mine bought some rollers from an old guy Called Whittingham about 15-20 years ago, and he was related to the Whittinghams of fireball fame.
My friend John had searched for any surviving Whittinghams that still kept rollers, and the birds were said to be the same family from all those years ago. I think the Mr Whitting ham in question lived in Rowley Regis which may be what confussed me but the family did move around a bit.
Unfortunately Mr Whittingham hadn't bothered much with them over the years, and they had deteriorated.
John had the biggest difficulty getting them off the roof of his house, and the young he bred off them did the same, so he gave up in frustration and got rid of them or culled them all I'm not sure which.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 4:56 PM
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quality
159 posts
Jan 22, 2009
5:41 PM
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When McAree passed away all "The Fireballs" ended up in I believe Gravenhurst, to a gentleman, who put them in a barn & they lived free range. Still living that way. 1 of the guys in the club is flying them.
The Fireball was a cock that was supposedly so fast & so magnificent. A family was bred around him & became The Fireball strain.
I was just talking to Ross Vito this weekend & he was telling me about it. Ross is an old timer around 90. He's met them all.
He used to have Wittinghams back in the 50's. They would cull the rollers & fly the rest like tipplers.
Ross got so many rollers, he started breeding for it.
He still says today the Wittinghams were better than anything today in the air. He doesn't know why he ever changed blood in the 70's.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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Scott
1495 posts
Jan 22, 2009
6:21 PM
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And he knows this how Don ? you would think that they would have retained popularity if true.
(He still says today the Wittinghams were better than anything today in the air.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 6:22 PM
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Fire_Baller_916
402 posts
Jan 22, 2009
6:32 PM
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You guys really need to do your homework...Some of the articles on Circus loft aren't accurate...If you want some history of Whittinghams/ Fireballs you should purchase "Acrobat of the Air" and "The search for those Fabulous Whittinghams"...Acrobats of the air was written by James E Graham himself and The search for those fabulous Whittinghams was written by Steve Roth and Joe Quinn...By the way Graham was a student of McAree...Its Graham that started the Fireball Strain...Fireball's son was the foundation of Fireballs today...George Patterson, LV French, and Hank Johnson purchase all there Fireballs from Graham himself and kept them pure and nothing added to them...I wouldnt say that there arent any pure Fireballs left...There are still hardcore Fireballers out there that are still flying pure Fireballs and are still enjoying them as we speak...
"Who said I know my history?, certainly not me."
Exactly, people like to misjudge Whittinghams/Fireballs but they dont even know any history about them...I dont know where you get your info's from Pete but best advice for you, if you would like to learn more about Whittinghams/Fireballs just come to the Fireball site and we'll Fireball Talk there...I dont want things to get sterr up in here because I respect Tony due to his hard work of managing both Roller-pigeon and Fireballrollers.com Peace out...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 6:49 PM
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Newbie 08
110 posts
Jan 22, 2009
7:14 PM
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Wow Scott this is a hot one. I was just curious about these kind of rollers. I have created a few thredas but never seen so much activity on any of them like this as so quick. and I'm sure the debate will continue ok I think my question was answered the first few post looks like this will continue for awhile. No pun intended guys LOL
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~~~~~~butch
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Fire_Baller_916
403 posts
Jan 22, 2009
7:20 PM
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Dont worry Newbie, its just like the color roller theard too...There's a lot of debate on certain subjects and it'll go on for ever and then stop and then comes back again...Know one will no the true history...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
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pat66
272 posts
Jan 23, 2009
3:27 AM
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Ross Vitos parents owned a general store when he was a young boy and Mr Graham used to frequent the store and talk to Ross for hours upon hours about birds,this info coming from a friend of mine in Canada that still talks to Vito,further info coming soon!
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Pat
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pigeon pete
67 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:51 AM
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Hi Leo,
Thanks for the offer to keep away from your place,lol
You wrote, the message below which still adds nothing to my knowledge of the Fireball strain.
I am capable of holding a reasonably intelligent conversation, but to just post stuff to try and stirr the pot isn't helpfull. I need another intelligent gent on the other end of the disscusion if I am to hold any sort of conversation. My post was about pigeons and the origins of strains. So far yours have been about WRONG! INCORRECT, SORRY ETC ETC.
Maybe you don't mean to be rude or perhaps you don't realise but it is generally regarded as bad manners to write in capitals because it is equated to shouting in text. Yes maybe I am an amature, it is an amature sport after all, and maybe I will make a real pigeon man someday, meanwhile I will continue try and hold intelligent conversations with genuine roller guys on forums like this, and learn all I can, from them.
If you don't want to engage in that process that is your decision.
Kindest regards,
Pete.
P.S please reply to this post and call me all the names you want, I will not reply, you have been removed from my list of people who I can have a sensible chat with.lol
Pete, I meant this offer in the kindest way,I simply wanted to see the correct Information was at your disposal,and you would be able to hold an inteligent conversation on the subject...sorry the word WRONG offended you.!...you are INCORRECT in your post..I hope thats better... I certanly APOLOGIZE if you or speed are offended...I know you are going to be a real Pigeon Man....LEO...p.s.dont bother stopping by
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Windjammer Loft
675 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:55 AM
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Newbie 08....info about Fireballs haas been asked several times in the past
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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pigeon pete
68 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:16 AM
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HI Chai,
The internet is full of inacuracies, the info on the circus site I visited seemed genuine, some of it was actually posted as written by Mr Mc Aree.
Also you replied to a post by speedball about Pensom founding the Fireball strain, but addressed it to me, A genuine mistake I am sure, I know who founded fireballs, and it certainly wasn't WHPensom.
Thanks for all the advice about where to find out the true history of the Strain with all the references to books and such. I seem to detect a little bit of over defensivness from the fireball fans. I don't know what has fired (no pun intended)up some of you guys, certainly nothing I have said. Maybe arguments from before I joined the forum?
In fact in your post above you have repeated some of what I had already written. I can asure you that I don't like to misjudge pigeons or men, in fact I would be pretty stupid to run fireballs down as I have never even seen one. I think you very aptly summed up the whole debate in your last post when you said,
Quote:- There's a lot of debate on certain subjects and it'll go on for ever and then stop and then comes back again...Know one will no the true history...
That's the most acurate statement I've seen on the subject, even with its contadictions,lol
Maybe I should stick to the Birmingham roller subjects, I don't seem to get into trouble with them,lol
Whatever anyone says about your breed, if they are what floats your boat then stick to them and enjoy them!!
Love and Peace,
Pete.
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Fire_Baller_916
404 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:37 AM
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"In fact in your post above you have repeated some of what I had already written. I can asure you that I don't like to misjudge pigeons or men, in fact I would be pretty stupid to run fireballs down as I have never even seen one."
I repeated to make it sound alittle nicer...LOL...Im too still a newbie at this but I get my info's from books and Hardcore Fireballers...Maybe one day i'll change History...LOL...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:41 AM
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Leo
Member
81 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:30 AM
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Hey CHAI, I have a 1980, "Acrobats of the Air" book that Jim wrote 2 yrs before he died,he talks about his life with the FBs,,and Info on McAree ,..he tells the history of his birds, and "Fireball" and a son of FBs that he used,to develope the FB family, and the way he did it,..also his disagreements with Pensom they had down through the yrs,..but were always friends,JIM even flew Pensoms birds on several occasions,and what his findings were,this book is signed by Jim,it is a revised fourth edition...This was the real pigeon men of my day...today is shure different,,I couldnt invite one guy to join us..he would rather ignore an honest apology and spend his time " Pouting" instead of asking questions, 'and stand up' and be counted...Let me know if you have this 1980 edition..LEO
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speedball
108 posts
Jan 23, 2009
1:44 PM
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the only research i need to do is in my own back yard. im not bothered much about old dead skeletons in a cupboard. i only fly competition rollers and i will this year. i dont have time for high flying old fashion saggy rollers anyhow. i breed for collective performance and im 85% in my task. i live in birmingham and most of those skeletons used to live around me. one day i will be a skeleton too. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! it was all birmingham in the early days. the areas were divided at a later date. check birmingham history.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 1:48 PM
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TT
GOLD MEMBER
335 posts
Jan 23, 2009
2:01 PM
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"Mc Aree a canadian, imported Birmingham Rollers from Whittingham of England. Mc Aree's pupil Graham got some of them.
He was going to found a new strain called fireball, after a cock he had called fireball. When he moved house to Ontario, Fireball got out and he lost him.
He then bred from fireballs son, to found the 'new ' strain. There is also the story of Mc Aree and Graham pooling all their rollers into one stud"
This is the story Ive always heard about the Fireball.
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Tony...
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 2:02 PM
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TheGame
454 posts
Jan 23, 2009
2:32 PM
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Oh yea Tony??
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quality
161 posts
Jan 23, 2009
3:15 PM
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Whittinghams are excellaent birds, but they only show there stuff every few days & maybe twice, 3 times a year, they would all work. Don't get me wrong there was good birds & bad birds, but they didn't want to show it much.
My birds I might get 2 or 3 times a year when they don't work.
I gave up my Whittinghams for different blood.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2371 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:01 PM
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There is nothing like the Birmingham Rollers... but different strokes for different folks....what ever floats your boat enjoy it..
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Ralph
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roller_boi
14 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:36 PM
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quality.. it depends on how you manage them and it takes them awhile for their true potential. At least 2 years
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TT
GOLD MEMBER
336 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:55 PM
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Well put Ralph, Man of true words!
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Tony...
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Fire_Baller_916
407 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:00 PM
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"Whittinghams are excellaent birds, but they only show there stuff every few days & maybe twice, 3 times a year"
I dont know how you manage your Whittinghams or who you got them from but everytime I go over to a friend house and he let his Whittingham kit fly I see good break all the time...Man, lets just drop this case since you folks aren't even into Fireballs and Whittinghams so you guys dont even no what you guys are talking about...
PS You guys probably havent even seen a Fireball or a kit flown so dont be saying nagative things...Peace out...
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Chai_Seng
http://fireballroller.ning.com/
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pat66
273 posts
Jan 24, 2009
3:26 AM
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Speedball,Please define your definition of old fashion saggy rollers.
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Pat
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speedball
109 posts
Jan 24, 2009
9:24 AM
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id rather not pat. i look to the future. i dont want to talk about the past and the birds of those days. makes me do 100ft rolls across the kitchen floor like a paper bag. ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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pat66
274 posts
Jan 24, 2009
9:49 AM
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Man, what is in the water you drink over there? DO NOT give it to them poor birds!
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Pat
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 9:50 AM
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speedball
110 posts
Jan 24, 2009
9:51 AM
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my birds aint like me mate.
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Leo
Member
83 posts
Jan 24, 2009
11:13 AM
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Pat, "Speedo", was looking at his own birds and called them saggy,,,lol...HE must think the FBs have STOOD STILL all these yrs, yet Tony and several others are flying them in their BR kits,...IF he dont want to talk about the past or those fine breeders,I DONT SEE ANYONE DEMANDING THAT HE HAS TO!!! he can just MOVE ON! we arent ' making'him answer anything,,,Those OLD BIRDS of "yesterday" are what HE is flying today!Looks like we have a another 'Real Roller Man' in the making LOL..LOL..LOL..LOL.. IT would be out of his realm of thought,,, if he found out I been flying Pensoms since 1955,from the master himself! kept pure,HE dont know that you fly a first class BR kit also!AND WE know who, what, where, and when,, about our birds,PERIOD!!!.....LEO
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speedball
111 posts
Jan 24, 2009
11:35 AM
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you are right leo in what you are saying but it may apply to you. quite frankly i dont realy care a squat about who, what, where and when about my birds. all i care about is when those 2 guys with the clock and book walk down the garden my birds better yes BETTER do as they have been bred to or heads will roll i guarentee you. i am not jim skidmore or ollie harris or bob brown and those honorable gentlemen cannot help me. you will know by my results when i fly!!! thanks.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 11:36 AM
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pat66
276 posts
Jan 24, 2009
11:59 AM
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Speedball,One question,if you do not care about who,where,what or when about your birds how did you reach 85 percent of where you want to be? I can tell you everything about the history of my birds and I in the last couple years have started stocking floaters,and I have been at this awhile,if not for my records I would not have achieved this,so you must have all the greatest birds to not care who,what where and when,could you explain how I could do this,to be so far ahead of the game as you?
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Pat
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 12:01 PM
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speedball
112 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:14 PM
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when i started with rollers many years ago i was like a puppy chasing after names. i would pay over the odds for birds that i now know were weak rollers. i stumbled and stumbled. i have got better and better with my birds. now i am ready. a man can only educate you on his own strain of birds, all strains are not the same. i do not chase a tail infront of me. i have gone my own way. i know all i need to about the strain i have and i am in control. come and watch my birds this year if you get a chance pat.
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