Bill from NJ
38 posts
Dec 29, 2008
7:10 PM
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As to colors, this is about as wild as I get....
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2008 7:14 PM
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quality
75 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:01 AM
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Bronze grizzle?----------
Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
112 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:49 AM
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Bill from NJ, THISROLL should like your album,lots of color.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 7:49 AM
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Sunflower
71 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:41 AM
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Nick,
Is that "Master Flier" or "Master Competitor". There is a difference! Pensom was a Master Flier and Breeder but he wasn't a Master Competitor. Joe
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Sunflower
74 posts
Dec 30, 2008
1:25 PM
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Jimmi, Some of us care about both. Why limit your horizon?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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nicksiders
3202 posts
Dec 30, 2008
3:28 PM
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Scott was awarded the NBRC Master Flier Award because he is a master breeder and a master competitor.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
77 posts
Dec 30, 2008
4:12 PM
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Nick, Don't get your panties in a wad. I'm not trying to belittle Scott's achievement. In fact quite the opposite. I admire his dedication to the sport plus I enjoy our banter. My point is that there are many deserving members of the hobby who can't get the distinction of being an NBRC Master Flyer because they don't compete in flys. But many of them are just as expert in the hobby. NBRC calls it Master Flyer but it should be called Master Competitor. My problem with flying competition as it is run by the NBRC involves what I consider an undue emphasis on frequency over quality and depth. An analysis of this years Top Ten Finalists illustrates my point. Also there have been too many "irregularities" in the past that reflect poorly on the WC in my opinion. I know I have just busted a hornet's nest but that is the way I feel. If you want some details, give me a call, I'll fill you in on the details.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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ezeedad
900 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:28 PM
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Joe,
I'll be the first to agree with you on the problems with most of the flying competitions. We have gone into pretty great detail before on this site, and I think that most people could see that the emphasis is on big breaks rather than quality and depth.
Paul G
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rollernewbie
314 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:33 PM
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wow Bill...thats alot of mottles..lol..looks nice..
also is that a tort or bronze in there?
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RollerNewbie
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gotspin7
2159 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:39 PM
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Joe and Paul, one question fellas. Please tell me you know the difference between preping a kit for a fly and just having unstable rollers. Second tell me that if you have birds that roll together, what they can't roll with speed and style?
P.S.. Ok 2...LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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ezeedad
901 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:42 PM
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Sal,
What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
Paul
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Bill from NJ
39 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:45 PM
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rollernewbie,
Thanks for the kind words.
Especially made around here on occasion, sometimes tempers flair over petty comments, that were innocently made.
And yes, I have quite a few torts in the lofts.
I have mostly Manz/Hubbs Mottles in Red and Yellows.
It is a real sight to see 100 to 150 of these Mottles flying and rolling.
Any other non-mottle pictured are original Russ Harter pigeons.
The Harter birds come in many, many different flavors.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Sunflower
82 posts
Dec 30, 2008
7:55 PM
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Sal, I believe I understand how to prep a kit for competition. Not sure I understand the rest of the question. If I read the book correctly, the reason Mr. Pensom imported the "competition badges" was to show other breeders where they were making a mistake in over emphasizing frequency. Got him in disfavor with other members of the PRC. Obviously unstable rollers are of no value but not sure all have the same definition of stable. To me a stable roller is one that can roll to any depth w/o bumping regardless of the height the kit is flying. I've got 30 footers that will only do 3-5 foot spins when the kit is low. That is my definition of stable. May not be the same definition as others. Besides which I just love to roll a hand frag in the door with the pin pulled to see what happens. Provocative statements can lead to great discussion if the are accepted as what they are!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 7:56 PM
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ezeedad
902 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:18 PM
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Joe,
Viet Nam vet?.... LOL
Paul G
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Sunflower
83 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:23 PM
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Paul,
Oh yea, spent 30 months over there as a Rifle Co Commander and Army Aviator. Thats probably why I am so irasible in my old age.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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gotspin7
2160 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:35 PM
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Paul & Joe, I will say that you guys are missing it a little, when was the last time you actually went on a fly? I will bet most of the guys that fly comps have nothing to hide when it comes to performance, well the ones with experience anyway. Why keep a bunch of stiffs and try to spin it of as if you are trying to breed for pure spin and depth? What do you think we are doing? Why are you bringing Pensom up? Or something he did 50 years ago? What does that have to do with comp?
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Sal Ortiz
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rollernewbie
320 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:35 PM
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wow...100-150 of them flying? looks like a great show right there..as i recall..Hubbs were Whittihams? are Manz are Whittihams too?
Thanks..
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RollerNewbie
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 8:42 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
113 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:39 PM
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Kopetsa, All that yellow and you are keeping quite????
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Sunflower
84 posts
Dec 30, 2008
8:46 PM
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Sal' I admit my birds are a little stiff at times. I breed for Velocity, Style and Depth. Frequency is not part of the equation. The reason I brought up Pensom was he was trying to show the other folks in the hobby at the time that frequency was being over emphasized at the time. It has everything to do with comps today because the emphasis is once again on frequency and not necessarily quality. The winner in this years WC had twice as many breaks as the 2d and 3rd place finishers but his quality scores were lower. I am not saying his kit was unworthy and am confident the scoring was done correctly as Eldon was the judge. My point is that frequency was the driver. I think that is the problem with comps today. Just my opinion!!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1380 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:01 PM
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Talk is cheap and comes very easy to backyard flyers,as they play with thier little projects,personaly I prefere to pit mine against the best in the world.
And I will pit quality and velosity against either one of you, a talker I'm not, I have a kit of old birds ready to rumble.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
85 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:06 PM
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Scott, I am confident that you do. I plan to fly again in the WC this spring so I guess we will see. I was sure we would not agree on this thread but I respect your opinion.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1381 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:30 PM
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Joe, the judges come and go,without a doubt some are more much more quality minded than others.
My birds are not frequency birds either, nor do I breed to meet the critera of judges that are happy with frquency,after all the two major flys are only twice a year.
In fact I don't know of any experianced flyers that don't breed towards quality first and foremost, of course getting that quality potential on fly day might be another thing.
Irregardless I fly no matter what, year in and year out, and I have blown many flys , and gotten lucky on a few, but I'm allways there to put them up.
PS - I will give you a call tomorrow
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 9:33 PM
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Scott
1382 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:38 PM
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(If I read the book correctly, the reason Mr. Pensom imported the "competition badges" was to show other breeders where they were making a mistake in over emphasizing frequency)
Yep you read it correctly, it doesn't work flying under competition Tumbler rules where there is no min. depth or quality standard, this is where choosing our judges is crucial
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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gotspin7
2161 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:41 PM
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Joe, I agree with what Scott said 100%, clear as glass baby!
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
86 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:46 PM
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Scott, I have never met you but hope to someday. As I said in an earlier post I admire your dedication to the sport. I entered the WC qualifier several years in a row back in the early 90s. Had some terrible experiences with state or area coordinators for a variety of reasons, mostly unreliability. Here in this region recently we had a judge allow two competitors to enter the WC on the day of the competition. Never mind what effect that had on guys who were scheduled to fly later that day. Had a similar thing happen to me several years ago, was scheduled to fly at 8:30 AM, judge and coordinator showed up at my house at 4:30 PM, decided to visit some other roller fanciers on the way to my place. In another instance the coordinator called me one evening to tell me he was picking the judge up at the KC airport at 6:00 PM and would be at my house between 7 and 7:30 PM to fly my birds. Forum policy prevents me from telling you what my response was but I am sure you can figure it out. I am not just a backyard flyer with little projects and I have decided to get back into competitive flying despite my past experiences. Good luck in all your flying endeavors.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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gotspin7
2162 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:50 PM
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Joe, how recently was this?
Here in this region recently we had a judge allow two competitors to enter the WC on the day of the competition.
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
87 posts
Dec 30, 2008
9:55 PM
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I believe it was in the last couple of years, ask Ferrell he can tell you. I got his second hand from a flyer you know and admire.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Sunflower
88 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:03 PM
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Val, I wasn't going to name my source but you spilled the beans
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2008 10:04 PM
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Electric-man
2225 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:12 PM
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LOL, I erased it after I thought about it! Figured I better put the beans back in the can before I started problems!
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Val
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Sunflower
90 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:18 PM
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Good move!! Our source was the same. He was too much of a gentleman to complain too loudly. I think Sal probably knows who the source was without thinking about it too much.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Sunflower
91 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:30 PM
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Val, I'm not much into text shorthand, I think I know what lmao means but what does LOL mean?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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gotspin7
2163 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:33 PM
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I got it fellas. Hey it means Laughing out loud
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Sal Ortiz
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gotspin7
2164 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:33 PM
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or lots of laughs.. same crap...lol
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
92 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:35 PM
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Thanks Sal for helping to educate an old man
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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gotspin7
2165 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:42 PM
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Hey Joe, any time bro.
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
93 posts
Dec 30, 2008
10:57 PM
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Well we pretty much trashed this thread. Got anything else you want to talk about?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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kopetsa
2658 posts
Dec 31, 2008
1:26 AM
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lol JDA!
Nice birds Bill! My 2 favorites are the yellow check (very top right corner) and the white at the top (2nd from the left)
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Andrew Carmichael
AB Canada
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gotspin7
2167 posts
Dec 31, 2008
4:44 AM
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No not all, I am good Sunflower....LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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quality
79 posts
Dec 31, 2008
5:21 AM
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Some "pretty" birds work out, some don't.
Color really is not a factor with me. Sometimes I use it in the stock pens. Depending on how close or far away the blood line is.
I am breeding birds for "Quality" spinning, doesn't matter what color they are.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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Bill from NJ
40 posts
Dec 31, 2008
5:48 AM
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rollernewbie,
To answer your question.
Yes, Charlie Hubbs birds are the exact same thing as the Les Manz pigeons.
Charlie has kept the family together since he was a very young boy.
You can read about the pigeons here if you like.
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds.htm
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Bill from NJ
41 posts
Dec 31, 2008
5:55 AM
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Kopetsa,
"My 2 favorites are the yellow check (very top right corner) and the white at the top (2nd from the left)"
Good eye! That particular bird is a cross of Manz/Hubbs line and the Russ Harter line.
The white is a straight Russ Harter hen.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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spinningdemon
137 posts
Dec 31, 2008
8:33 AM
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Bill,
Do you find in the Harter birds / manz/ hubbs that they fly well together or do you have to fly the families seperate?
Any of the Manz/ Hubbs birds come in solid or print marked or are they always a mottle/ whiteside?
I am working with some mottle casperson birds and I am getting selfs and print marked birds when I put mottle on mottle.
Thanks for your above photo nice looking birds.
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David Curneal
Performance breeds since 1973
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Bill from NJ
42 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:09 AM
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Dave,
I do, always, fly both families together, not separate.
They both seem to complement each other very nicely.
An example would be; The Harter have a very frequent rolling ability, but are dumb as a bag of rocks.
They can get lost crossing the street.
Flying the Harters together with the Manz/Hubbs Mottles, results are: the Harter birds will fly higher and find their way back home more easily, I also see the Harter birds get the Mottles into the roll much faster.
I guess you can call it the Monkey see - Monkey do effect, any way it seems to work out nicely for me.
Charlie Hubbs has worked for many years to consistantly produce Mottles or whitsides from his breeders.
Sometimes my nephew still gets some self Reds or self Yellows on occasion.
My nephew has always been getting them for many years now.
Strange, but I never made one...yet.
Warm Wishes to you and yours,
Bill from NJ
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fresnobirdman
345 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:10 AM
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bill, you have more yellows than kopetsa.
haha
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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fresnobirdman
346 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:13 AM
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but yea bill,
you got some beautiful birds!
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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rollernewbie
322 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:14 AM
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Bill,
the idea of flying them together to get into the roll fast..sound like a good idea..
so im guess the Harter birds come in more early? so the mottles will do they same? thats pretty cool..
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RollerNewbie
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Bill from NJ
43 posts
Dec 31, 2008
10:00 AM
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fresnobirdman,
As you can see, I have more than just Yellows....
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2008 10:09 AM
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rollernewbie
323 posts
Dec 31, 2008
10:47 AM
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dang Bill those some nice red mottles too..
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RollerNewbie
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Bill from NJ
44 posts
Dec 31, 2008
11:02 AM
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rollernewbie,fresnobirdman,
Thanks guys for the positive comments about my birds.
Warm Regards,
Bill from NJ
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spinningdemon
139 posts
Dec 31, 2008
11:13 AM
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Bill,
I have to say also they are nice birds. I need to get me some of the hubbs birds over on this place since I do not have enough projects LOL
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David Curneal
Performance breeds since 1973
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