smoke747 833 post s 22-Apr-2008 12:48 AM	Laron, I was reading your post on the subject of 1220 vs 0016.You made some good points. The problem is, most will always side with what they have in their lofts and see things for what they are. The 1220 line was not cultivated to compete as 0016 was. The spin is not faster in the 0016 birds but are harder workers with a high percentage of hard workers than I have seen in the 1220 birds. Charlie Saldana and Kevin Adams got those birds to work but they flew higher and longer. I used to live by the 1220 x Lehmeyer matings. The birds either got stronger or deeper, in any case they became to hard to manage. There are some from the old stuff that would now be of use to me. The bottom line is, knowone wants to take the time to cultivate their own strain, most don't know how, so they get rid of all their birds and buy a whole nother family,as if they didn't have not one quality bird before. honestly speaking, the 0016 fam is a better rounded fam. just my thoughts smoke747 Keith London ICRC Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 12:48 AM
DeepSpinLofts 611 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:03 AM	For the record.... let me get this straight. You are stating that the 0016 line of Birmingham Roller Pigeons have been cultivated for competitive purposes more outwardly than the 1220 line. Am I correct? ....however The spin is faster in the 1220 line of roller pigeons, but the 0016 line of rollers are harder workers in the air compared to what you have seen in the performance bred 1220 birds. Correct? Marcus Deep Spin Lofts Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 1:04 AM
smoke747 835 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:13 AM	The spin in the 1220 birds is not faster or slower, about equal,but the 1220 would have a slight edge which most would not notice. The variables in the 0016 birds I am talking about are, higher percentages of quality performers, frequency, smaller, fly slower, lower, less non performers, and they develope earlier which could be bad depending on the handler. They are Birminghams, so they go back to Pensom some where some how. smoke747 Keith London ICRC Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 1:26 AM
DeepSpinLofts 612 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:18 AM	Which line of Birmingham Rolling Pigeons would you prefer to work with if they were bred correctly over the years before you had obtained them? The #0016 line ....or The #1220 line {P.S.} Now please be straight forward here. Marcus Deep Spin Lofts
smoke747 836 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:21 AM	a mixture of both. Some of my smoke birds have 1220 birds in their background. smoke747 Keith London ICRC Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 1:28 AM
Mark 18 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:23 AM	Keith, I have to agree with EVERYTHING you said about the 1220 line. The one thing you might have left out is the fact that some will come down from a dot. LOL. On a serious note, The 1220 line (if obtained from a fancier that has kept them straight)has been one of the best kept secrets here in So Cal. Great line of blood if handled right. Take care, Mark
DeepSpinLofts 614 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:36 AM	Okay now this is good to know. You have highlighted some very important things for me. Hmm... let's see here. Ahh yes.... in order for us to build a respectable family of performing rolling pigeons we must undeniably start off with the best breeding stock available. Don't you agree? Below I have a picture of some young performance bred rolling pigeons out of the Stan Plona strain of Pensom rollers. I want you to examine them and tell me which of these 5 birds look more like that of the 1220 line of rolling pigeons (which of course are also Pensoms). From left to right there's a red bar, dun, white, oddside red badge, dark check and tortoiseshell. Click on photo for larger image Marcus Deep Spin Lofts
smoke747 838 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:37 AM	Marcus, all could be descendants of 1220. Most were dominant in the blue chk. smoke747 Keith London ICRC
DeepSpinLofts 615 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:44 AM	I knew you would say that! If I were fortunate enough to get my hands on some of that bonafide quality 1220 stock.... then I would probably cross it into the same family as the dark check in the photo above. That dark check come off some hard spinning stuff man! Some toooooo "DEEP". ....well anyway Good night Keith. Need to check on my stock portfolio. Talk to you later. MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind. Marcus Deep Spin Lofts Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 1:45 AM
smoke747 839 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:50 AM	Marcus, next time you come out look me up so we can bird out. got a sample for you smoke747 Keith London ICRC
3757 709 post s 22-Apr-2008 7:15 AM	"The bottom line is, knowone wants to take the time to cultivate their own strain, most don't know how, so they get rid of all their birds and buy a whole nother family,as if they didn't have not one quality bird before (Kieth London 2008)." That is the bottom line!!!!
elopez 1095 post s 22-Apr-2008 10:07 AM	Keith, I remember the 1220 line you and Kevin Adams had. Those where some deep birds. Now, I was much younger then, but I did see a few birds that would stick out and really spin hard. Now from what I've seen from your kits in the 90's and your kits now is that the additions of your 0016/0003/Higgins/reed family is that you don't just get a few birds spinning hard you have a whole kit of them. Whereas before you would only get a few hard spinners. Is that because the percentages of offspring weren't as high as they are now? Also, when you flew those older birds were you scoring the 1100+ points with them? It must be the Smoke with the Higgins twist... ---------- Efren Lopez SGVS
quickspin 538 post s 22-Apr-2008 10:23 AM	As for me I will stay with the 1220 and play with it in till I manage it right. I need to find one hen that will make it shorter in depth and with control. They have the speed that I like. ---------- SALAS LOFT
smoke747 844 post s 22-Apr-2008 10:32 AM	Quick, most would have just switched families. When get there you'll be proud and appreciate your accomplishments more. Keep on working it. smoke747 Keith London ICRC
quickspin 541 post s 22-Apr-2008 10:55 AM	What will you get if you cross 0016 x 1220? ---------- SALAS LOFT
elopez 1100 post s 22-Apr-2008 11:10 AM	Quick, Might be too deep, but I think it would be going back instead of forward. 0016 and some of the newer stuff has been working very good and with the kit. Like Antonio Mitchell (0016) stated “ the only way to move on from a cock that produces like him is to have offspring that produce better than him” ---------- Efren Lopez SGVS
luis 823 post s 22-Apr-2008 11:42 AM	Creating your own strain,is not something everyone wants to undertake.It's very time consuming, and it takes some level of experience with breeding pigeons.With so many excelent strains/families to choose from already and comp being what most want to do,i could see why most obtain good stock from a reputable breeder and simply keep breeding. I for one like some of the attributes of the Pensom family and some of the goods in the Higgins family.I plan to work with both and try to the best of my abilities to create what i want.It will take some time,but i think i will enjoy the results more.
redchecker16 89 post s 22-Apr-2008 11:46 AM	Great Post Smoke747 I learn alot from your posts Glad ur Back! Redchecker16
3757 711 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:18 PM	"The 1220 line was not cultivated to compete as 0016 was (London 2008." Keith - After I read your statement again I notice the above statement and I would have to say that this is am impossiple statement for me to comment on since I have know way of knowing all of the individuals that bred 1220 offspring and what they were cultivating as well as 016. The comparison of the two lines is an impossible comparison because one is almost 40 years old and the other is fairly recent with the past two decades. What are you judging the criteria on? As you can see it is impossible to have accurate data on the two lines. It is almost like comparing Bruce Lee to Rickson Gracie. The speed and style of the 1220's that I had from Bob was second to non to me but I respect your opinion and experience also. I am sure that there are guys that have 016 blood that you would not touch with a ten foot pool because everything from 1220 or 016 were not champion producers and also as you stated some guys do not know how to cultivate a family. P.S Marvin never called me back. If you speak with him tell him I said hello.
quickspin 543 post s 22-Apr-2008 1:39 PM	I just can't believe how fast the 1220 should of been in his time. If many of his offspring are still fast but as for the original I really don't think as close to him. ---------- SALAS LOFT
DeepSpinLofts 619 post s 22-Apr-2008 9:53 PM	"Most would have just switched families. When get there you'll be proud and appreciate your accomplishments more. Keep on working it." (London 2008) ======================================== ======================================== From Deep Spin Lofts Allow me to reiterate: "In order for us to build a respectable family of performing rolling pigeons we must undeniably start off with the best breeding stock available." (Freeman 2008) MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
warpspeed 18 post s 22-Apr-2008 11:14 PM	to set the record straight i have bred 0016 to 7 different hens the last couple of years, hens that i developed and flew out, out of the birds i have been working with since 1994. every single bird was a champion in the air and out of the ones that i have bred out of they are also producing awesome birds. they produce velocity to the highest level depth and frequency that will leave you staring at the sky thinking when are they going to stop. also with them kitting on a dime. keeping in mind that all the hens i used where flown for at least 2-3 years and 90% of my stock birds have been flown for 2-3 years. abel Last Edited on 22-Apr-2008 11:17 PM
smoke747 847 post s 22-Apr-2008 11:31 PM	3757, I am speaking about my experiences with both families. I had birds that were 3/4 1220 x 626 with the Bob Scott 136 up close . I didnot have nearly as much success as I am having with the 0016,0003,0004, and 45 family of pigeons. I am croossing the new family with the same family I crossed the 1220 birds to. I do admit I know more now than I did 10 - 15 yrs ago. smoke747 Keith London ICRC
3757 713 post s 23-Apr-2008 3:32 AM	Keith - That makes total sense based on your experience, observations and knowledge of both families. Also, there are many who do not know about 016. Who bred the parents and grandparents? I hope all is well. Abel - If every bird you bred out of this cock was a champion in the air than that is better than anyone in the history of rollers as I know no one presently or historically that gets a true rare aerial champion out of every bird that is hatched no matter how great the cock may be. That must be an awesome cock. Last Edited on 23-Apr-2008 6:18 AM
George R. 519 post s 23-Apr-2008 6:44 AM	Abel I have been to your Loft and I have witnessed some of the most awsome Birds I have ever seen. Good Luck in the World Cup prelims
smoke747 850 post s 23-Apr-2008 10:17 AM	ABEL, I like the family to, but all champions, come on now. 100% producer? I know they produce in the high % but ALL CHAMPIONS? That might be better than Pensom himself. If that is the case, using anything else would be uncivilized... smoke747 Keith London ICRC
smoke747 851 post s 23-Apr-2008 10:17 AM	ABEL, I like the family to, but all champions, come on now. 100% producer? I know they produce in the high % but ALL CHAMPIONS? That might be better than Pensom himself. If that is the case, using anything else would be uncivilized... smoke747 Keith London ICRC
elopez 1106 post s 23-Apr-2008 12:04 PM	100% now you can't beat that. Now those 7 hens that you put 0016 on, how were they? Are they giving you the same results on other cocks? I believe you told me you put him on your top hens, correct? I did see that one off of 0016 in you kit and that looked like a Champion to me. 40 foot tight spinner. I know you had some off of 0003 that were just as good, but what was the rest of the kit? Because you must of had almost a kit load of them spinning. Were they out of the same 0016 line? Now just to make sure, 100% that means that you didn't get not one that was an okay bird but a Champion correct? If this statement is true I see why you have around 20 offspring in your breeding loft. Now if what Worm (0016) said that his offspring product just as good or even better then you need to stop being so greedy and slide some my way... Worm (0016) Johnny (Ideaspin) Jerry Higgins did you guys get the same results out of 0016? ---------- Efren Lopez SGVS Last Edited on 23-Apr-2008 12:08 PM
luis 827 post s 23-Apr-2008 12:24 PM	A pair producing ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CHAMPIONS!Now there's something to hold onto for dear life.I'd be happy with a pair that produced Champions on a much lesser scale.I think the word Champion implies a bird that needs no improvement whatsoever and is the best of the best in its class.ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CHAMPIONS??????????????????????
warpspeed 19 post s 23-Apr-2008 3:13 PM	i said champion in the air and it just isnt one pair its with every mating i did. yes efren the hens have also produced very high % on other cocks that i have. the rest of the kit 16 or 17 of then maybe another 4 are off 0016 offspring and the rest are out of my stuff that i have been working with and no i did not get a bad or even an average one . abel
0016 80 post s 23-Apr-2008 7:35 PM	Man one thing I have to say is not all birds that come off of 0016 are champions,but I can say that almost all of them guys want them like 357 stated earlier it was 40 years ago,do you have a car 40 years old that can compete with the 08 model? Abel flew all of his me personally I flew the first three rounds then I know what I had Johnny Smith had him maybe about three years before I got him when I had him he filled 40 eggs 2 were not fertile on 7 hens the sold to Able has not fed babies proably since 2002 father of many offspring anybody out there got a bad one of those high dollar birds off NBRC0016-95 speak up no for 1220 didnt Jerry have some 1220 what would a person get rid of 1220 to switch to something lesser? hum 1220 guys stay holding on to that Heritage go by Able house he is flying a whole lot of them bottom line is birds are only as good as the breeder understands them excellent pigeons in the hands of guys who dont understand them will always be nothing more than culls.
0016 81 post s 23-Apr-2008 7:45 PM	Bottom line Jerry Higgins just had alot of good pigeons and he put together a good spinnin family, as for speedracer(Abel Ibarra)I have seen alot of good kits flown by him and he is also a good friend of mine that if you ask him a question be careful because he is going to tell you the truth (in a hurry proof read later) but that is my opinion which means absolutely NOTHIN!
BA Rollers 7 post s 23-Apr-2008 7:56 PM	100 percent champions???? Kinda sounds like a sales pitch to me. I'm hoping to see the kits fly in riverside this weekend for the world cup. what day do you fly warpspeed, I want to see those champions. Its been a while since i've been to see the kits fly out there, it sounds like I will be in for a real treat!
George R. 523 post s 23-Apr-2008 8:15 PM	Hey BA you are in for a treat my friend.... ENJOY>>>>
warpspeed 21 post s 23-Apr-2008 9:14 PM	sales pitch not really i dont sell pigeons just ask around but i do love trophys that is competetion ones. i fly sun 6:30 am
George R. 524 post s 23-Apr-2008 9:18 PM	Abel The Vegas region flys this weekend too, I go first at 6;30am .
warpspeed 22 post s 23-Apr-2008 9:24 PM	good luck post results i will post saturdays and sundays for all you guys
George R. 527 post s 23-Apr-2008 9:28 PM	10-4
3757 716 post s 24-Apr-2008 3:29 AM	Newbies - We really do not know why the people that have 1220's keep the birds or why someone has fireballs, Caspersons etc but I would assume because of performance. There are plenty of people who get rid of a family for various reasons and the one reason may be that they do not want to take the time to cultivate for what they want out of the birds. All of the rhetoric is subjective because there is no universal law that states individual performance is the way or kit competition is the way. The way is what you desire in your family of rollers. There is no one that dictates what is right or wrong when it comes to what you want. Do not get caught up in rhetoric and breed to what you desire out of your pigeons and have fun.
smoke747 864 post s 24-Apr-2008 9:35 AM	3757, you are right on the money. The hobby needs both to survive. smoke747 ---------- Keith London ICRC
warpspeed 23 post s 24-Apr-2008 10:48 AM	this is a performance breed and to me the way it is is about winning the flys and competetions, otherwise you are just a pigeon keeper or peddler. in my opinion the difference between a breeder that breeds for an individual bird or competetion birds is that he is looking for ONE superstar where as me as a comp guy i am looking to have 20 superstars working together. abel
3757 717 post s 24-Apr-2008 12:27 PM	Thanks Keith. Newbie’s - Do what makes you happy despite the rhetoric as I stated above. All competition is great individual or kit it is up to you and there are no right or wrong decisions! Also, individual does not mean only one bird is performing despite what most think. If you only have one pigeon performing get rid of the other 19 and breed 19 more. Most do not understand the concept. If you are not having pleasure doing what you are doing change and do not let anyone dictate what you should be doing in your own backyard unless they are paying the rent :)!
BA Rollers 8 post s 24-Apr-2008 12:48 PM	abel, so because a guy doesn't compete he is a just a pigeon keeper or pigeon peddler? Strong statements from someone who just claimed to the world that he breeds 100% champions, yet hasn't won the big flys. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, but it would appear to me that either you are looking to get paid, or making a claim of sorts to the roller pigeon world. Mr. 357?, the smart man realizes that what he believes does not always make the rules, it is just what he believes the way things should be. Since we don't have a standard, or at least I have never read one, then each of our opinions about what the birds are supposed to do has equal merit with the next guy. That's what I believe. 100 percent champions......man that's just loco esa.
3757 718 post s 24-Apr-2008 2:05 PM	Ball good points. I would also like to mention that the standard is in The Birmingham Roller by William Hyla Pensom (1958). He also mentioned the standard earlier in 1945 as follows: (Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."
BA Rollers 9 post s 24-Apr-2008 2:14 PM	Mr 3757, I don't consider Pensom's quote to be a standard. I consider his comments to be his opinion to describe the way he believes and his companions in the hobby believed the birm roller should perform. I understand the meaning of his words in that statement, and I think that many would agree that a spinning ball is the ultimate. I am just a back yard guy, but I pay attention and think I do a pretty good job of filtering through things that I discuss with friends or read. The standard you quote isn't a standard, but an opinion, albeit an educated one that is well respected. Some accept it to be a standard and I do too, but as a standard for performance, ie the way the bird is supposed to spin. And nothing more. The standard for everything else about the birmingham roller doesn't exist but in the minds of those who raise them, their expectations for that the birds are supposed to do. that is what i am trying to say. i hope that makes more sense.
3757 719 post s 24-Apr-2008 2:46 PM	Actually Lewis Wright originally made the statement in the 1800's and the Black Country breeders, who are the originators of many of the birds in this country, used that standard. Pensom was quoting Lewis Wright as in the quotation in my previous post. It is the oldest written standard that we have had that has been documented historically.
BA Rollers 10 post s 24-Apr-2008 5:44 PM	"Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation." 3757, I am not challenging the legitimacy of what was quoted. I too feel that the very best spinners will replicate that description in the air. The problem as I see it is that the generally adopted opinion of how a birmingham roller is supposed to spin, ends at the description of the quality of performance. Where I begin to question is when there is an underlying rejection against people who breed for kit competition and the often stated assumption that people who breed for kit competitions don't breed to "the birmingham roller standard". The way I take your particular position is that if a person doesn't breed solely for "the true Birmingham Roller that turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball", that they aren't breeding towards a standard of perfection. please correct me if i am mistaken.
3757 720 post s 24-Apr-2008 7:10 PM	Ball - That is not what I am saying at all. I am reiterating the fact that there has been a written standard that was adopted by the originators of the breed according to history. That is it. Some believe in it and some do not. Also, I believe you are saying that it is no way for the standard to be instituted and I agree with that 100 percent. Since the conception of the original quote some have bred to the standard and some have bred to a different standard. There is no governing body that says this is the way it has to be. Bill Pensom had certain goals that many today would think is ludicrous. It is up to the individual. That is why there is so much subjectivity in the sport. Last Edited on 24-Apr-2008 7:11 PM
elopez 1112 post s 24-Apr-2008 10:27 PM	BA, I have personally seen Abel's birds in action and at least the bird that I have seen off of 0016 was a Champion in my opinion. I believe Abel told me that he will challenge anyone in a Kit competition, same day, same judge, for money, bragging right, or for some good ole BBQ. Anyone up to the challenge? I think these kind of comps will be fun to be at or compete in. BA, 3757 Abel fly's this Sunday at 6:30am, you guys should get out there and have him point out his black self off of 0016 so you guys can be the judge. Although I must warn you all, he had around 5 black selfs that were getting it. ---------- Efren Lopez SGVS Last Edited on 24-Apr-2008 10:28 PM
smoke747 866 post s 24-Apr-2008 10:49 PM	Mr Lopez, what if they come out and Abel has a bad day? One fly and one bird does not back up 100% champion statement. Those birds are good, as a matter of fact, very good. i can't say they don't because I have not seen birds directly from 0016 only grand kids from him and they were good but not champions. champion- one that wins first prize or place in a contest, and in this case; #2 one that is acknowledged to be better than all others. If this is the case they are all the same in performance because once one of them is established as being a champion there can be no difference in performance, not even the slightest smoke747 ---------- Keith London ICRC