I have heard of breeders pairing only birds of the same family and believing that this is the way you maintain solid performers.
I have also heard of breeders pairing best to best no matter what family(s) are involved and this is the key to maintaining solid performers. Can you give the pros and cons of either program?
What is the most common and successful practice? Nick
In my humble opinion Nick line breeding tightens the gene pool and you have birds closely related that share similar genetic factors. This in turn brings out (positive and negative) traits quicker. Your then able to make corrections to your strain of birds by selecting mates that will better those traits in which they are weak or lacking all together.
When crossing 2 families together you widen that gene pool and add more variables to the equation (you can still get good birds from both forms of matings with proper selections).
Out breeding is said to add vigor to your birds, but it is my belief that in order to perpetuate the outstanding qualities in a bird you must line breed or loose those qualities with each out crossing. Also if you want birds that perform the same it is good to line breed. Just my humble opinion, and let it be known I’m no expert!! Luis
In my opinion the best way forward is to breed from a family of birds that is already established. The reason, the family is simple if you want to fly a kit of birds all related and closely bred you will find example:
· Eating habits the same, speed, diet
· Flying habits the same i.e. wing-beat, kitting
· Rolling same depth, frequency, quality
· Bird size
These are the traits you want. If you have different strains and you just pick best to best you are on a much longer road. You will find that you will get good birds also you will get bad birds, all sizes differ kitting patterns some eating faster than others etc.
I have put this post very basic so people can see where i am coming from. I wasted 4 years breeding best to best with lots of different strains in my loft only to find I was going backwards not forwards.
Guys I am not saying you cant do it this way but what I am saying it is a longer way of doing it. So what I am saying to newbies is start up with an established family from the word go. I wasn’t that fortunate to have the pleasure of getting an established family from the start. W@yne
Out breeding: Sometimes called out crossing, is the introduction into a pure line of a bird or birds of another breed or VARIETY, in only 1 or a few matings in order to secure from the breed outcrosses upon some particular character desired, or to infuse into the pure line a dash of new blood for purposes of VIGOR. Luis
The tighter the birds, the better, no if' ands or buts, if you don't think so, you never had a solid family to know the difference. This I know from experience.
But for those unfortunate one's that have to cross, at the very least make sure that they are at least close as possible to management, type, etc. and for gosh sakes don't try to cool down overcooked culls with good solid birds.
If you are crossing I would keep the number of birds used as foundation to the fewest possible , if you can find 3 that gel together, and are able to inbreed/line breed this should be all you need , and will be easier to get them on the same page. Scott
I have a family of birds that are from a friend that started with two cocks and three hens from Barrett and Brown imports close to thirty years ago. He has not added another family to this mix.
I have done the same with his birds (two cocks and three hens), I thought I would not have the extra hen sit idle for a couple rounds so I found a real good bird in my mind from another friend and raised up 10 young from this family crossing.
All ten are the greatest roll downs I have ever seen. 4-5 times each flight and would keep on ticking if allowed
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to still exist. It could have went the other way and I could have lucked out and had one of those click pairings.
It’s a gamble. I would say people need to stick with and learn from what they have and either make something from their birds or get a better family and try again.
Then once you have become comfortable with what you have you can go forward with the thought of working on a crossing. I think too many people give up too quick or are to eager to jump on the next fad or family that is doing well. Even when they acquire these new super birds they have no real understanding of what they have.
So in my mind you can go either way, stick to one family or mix and match. The one common thing is to be competent in knowing what you have and how to move forward.
The novice will not gain this from mixing and matching, they need a well grounded family to learn the traits, etc first and then possibly move on to mixing if still looking for something their family is lacking. Dave
You should breed best to best and agree that a close family of birds is best but when the family of birds are at a point of needing a cross the hard part is finding that other family that is compatible to the family you are working with.
You can touch them in with that other family then bring it back to your family to keep them similar. John M.
I still feel exactly the same on this subject Gary. The tighter the family the better your chances of duplicating the goods in any given pair. It's up to the breeder to do the opposite with the negative traits!
Too much in the mix and you never know what the heck is gonna hatch out of those eggs!!! Simple Math really. Luis
When you cross you add all sorts of variables and other unknown traits. First, cross for what reason? Most guys do not even learn a family and start out by crossing? Usually because of something they heard which most of the time is not scientifically sound.
There are already a myriad of traits within a line and you can change a line or create sub-families within a particular strain. A cross should be done only when it absolutely impossible to get what you need within a line and that is usually not absolute if you are speaking about rolling propensities. Color is a different subject. LaRon
Some good points LaRon, my feeling is that if it isn't already there they are the wrong birds to begin with. Most that I have seen cross for a purpose are in reality down breeding a good line into an inferior one due to an attachment to it. Scott
Scott - I have to agree to that. One key point is what does the individual want out of his or hers family and pursue that and do not lose focus.
I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version. They continue with this microwave version until there is a problem and get another microwave. If someone’s birds are stolen or a disaster happens that is a different story.
If you look at the 1079/369 and 370 families that I have from Herb and what others have out there these birds are not like the originals but have been continuously cultivated to make progress.
People could have giving up and said let me try this or that but progress has been constant. I think Ken Billings is a perfect example of that. Scott you may have more details but I know for a fact that before Chandler Grover received the pairs that were sent down to San Diego the owner was not happy but look where the birds are today and the progress that was made.
Chan saw the potential in those birds and could see where those birds could go forward! These birds were not discarded but the owner saw the potential and pursued a goal. Incidentally, these birds were off of champion spinners and producers but one individual did not care for them for whatever reason.
It just goes to show you that not everyone will be happy no matter what. How is it that people are successful with the decedents of these birds and the reason is that persistence and a goal got them there!
We must understand that not everyone’s goal is the same and if your goal is stiff pigeons that is ok if that is what you like the key is have a goal and pursue it without a goulash! LaRon
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(How is it that people are successful with the decedents of these birds and the reason is that persistence and a goal got them there!) LaRon, it comes down to individual pigeons that are/were used, and where these decedents are concerned, you can't paint these birds with a broad brush and it all boils down to selection of particular birds and nothing more.
And for that reason is why I shudder at the continual breeding of unflown pigeons due to what is behind them, good blood means little if cull traits are used and there is only one way to know what an individual pigeon is and that is to fly it hard and put it through the test of time, there is no other way and parentage is no guarantee of anything.
These birds have an uncanny way of passing on traits, stiff, un-stable, poor quality, wing position and even little details of how they exit the roll, if you breed birds with such traits you "will" breed more.
No gene pool is so tight that it never breeds undesirables, my point being, fly the dog crap out of the little Bastards and only breed out of what you want more of and draw the gene pool tight around such pigeons.
Old blood is worthless if the right birds weren't selected and used all the way down the generations to our lofts today, and that is why so much of what people claim as old line Pensom is totally worthless and in no way represents the breed, some hold on to this rubbish just for the sake of it.
I guess the point of my post is that I only care about the birds within my own loft and what they are producing in the air, not 1079 which is behind my stock, I can breed a loft full of culls loaded with this stuff if I failed to select my stock correctly, matter of fact I have seen lofts of cull are loaded with 1079,514 etc. by people that took their eye off of the ball or brought them in by others that cared more for what they looked like on paper than in the air.
On a side note, I'm noticing that my birds are coming in 4-5 months now instead of 6-7 months, the reason is I have been breeding out of my best of the prior season, which means they were earlier developers, then I put them back up in the air, more of a test breeding.
I only use those that are stable as rocks and full of quality roll, now I have solid stability and better percentages of good one's that come in earlier, in other words selection at work here.
I have a hen in the A team now that has 3 siblings in there with her, one son has been pulled for trial stock and she will find a permanent spot in stock after the Fall fly, two other hens have been moved back out to fly as they have several in the youngster kits.
This is how I build my stock, they fly for two or three years but they also get test matings in the mean time also if they are showing exceptional goods and stable as can be.
Never do I do this with any pigeon that shows any sign of stability issues as we are talking of birds 10-13 mo old. Stability has nothing to do with not having plenty of roll, it all boils down to selection. Scott
Scott - No offense but this is a perfect example of misinterpretation of what was said. Here are some of my quotes "I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version. “Originals but have been continuously cultivated to make progress”,
I think you agreed with me as I stated that there was a goal and the birds were selected for that goal...Correct me if I am wrong but if you read what I said I did not paint them with a broad brush. Maybe I am crazy but your response did not have anything to do with what I stated. Help me out here? LaRon
(I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version.)
Spot on LaRon and is why you see so many constantly dragging birds home, it is a constant building/maintaining process once you have the right building blocks and time is measured by years when it comes to these birds, nothing fast about it.
Scott
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In discussing our efforts to improve our roller stock one often-used phrase in the roller community is “breed best to best”. This phrase serves to summarize the most practical and reasonable method for stocking a loft with quality birds. The crux is our understanding of what IS best and the PATH that leads us there. Starting with quality stock is the first step to this end...The following discussion is from our archived All Roller Talk forum and has been edited for relevance and insightfulness. Tony Chavarria